Fly320s
Member
Fox news TV is reporting that Iraqi insurgents stormed a security company in Iraq and have taken over 50 hostages.
No link; saw it on TV.
No link; saw it on TV.
Over 50 hostages at security company in Iraq
- Thread starter Fly320s
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It's ok. It's probably part of the "clear plan for victory" GWB referred to in the State of the Union address when he said:
And of course, Sean Hannity says (nearly every day):
So, to quote another great statesman, let's not pay any attention to the "nattering nabobs of negativism".
OK?
And of course, Sean Hannity says (nearly every day):
So, to quote another great statesman, let's not pay any attention to the "nattering nabobs of negativism".
OK?
Manedwolf
member
Well, that's what happens when you try to invade and hold a country the size of CA, filled with tribal groups that hate each other, with barely enough troops to hold a decent-sized city. It's like starting, and then running into a gunfight with two bullets.
Surprise, surprise. "What happened?! It was just a land war in Asia!"...
Sun Tzu would have a bit to say, I think. And it doesn't matter what you think of the politics of it all, the STRATEGIC PLANNING (or lack thereof) of it all was, and is...
Surprise, surprise. "What happened?! It was just a land war in Asia!"...
Sun Tzu would have a bit to say, I think. And it doesn't matter what you think of the politics of it all, the STRATEGIC PLANNING (or lack thereof) of it all was, and is...
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Sound familiar? Well that didn't come from Iraq. That was the news from Germany in 1946.
You thought they would all just lay down the guns and give up?
Henry Bowman
Senior Member
But that's what CNN said that W meant when he said that it would be a very long, hard war.
longeyes
member
Why does it take 13 weeks to make a U.S. Marine and a seemingly infinite amount of time to train an Iraqi military force? When we honestly answer that question, we'll realize what we're up against.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Oh sorry, my bad again. That was June to December 1945.... my mistake.
This in Iraq is totally different I'm sure
Sorry, sorry, that was talking about Germany again.
Crap. That too was said about Germany in 1946. I am trying to find articles on Iraq but I keep seeing this stuff from some other war.
Dang that history for getting in the way of all the Bush bashing.....
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Joseph Goebbels - Pirate radio broadcast from 1945 describing the beginning of insurgent activity by the "Werewolf" organization.
And all this from an army that was clearly devoted, but not suicidal.
Imagine if the Nazi ferver had somehow the religious fanaticism of today's Iraqi insurgents how effective it would have been. Imagine if the Nazis truly believed that to die for the Fuhrer would lead to eternal bliss.
Gun Wielding Maniac
Member
LOL... you guys make it sound as if the Iraqi "insurgency" is this invincible unstopable wave. They're a bunch of murdering ???????s who cannot face our forces any sort of pitched combat, so have instead turned to killing defenseless civilians. They "strategy" they have is not complicated and they are not especially skilled.
What they count on is for people over here to watch the news and assume the worst. It is NOT that bad over there. It is vastly overblown. I've been there twice now and am going again this fall. What is holding us back is sentimental idiots who will not allow us to simply kill suspected insurgents where we find them. They get turned over to the local police and of course, a week later they are back on the streets.
What they count on is for people over here to watch the news and assume the worst. It is NOT that bad over there. It is vastly overblown. I've been there twice now and am going again this fall. What is holding us back is sentimental idiots who will not allow us to simply kill suspected insurgents where we find them. They get turned over to the local police and of course, a week later they are back on the streets.
HankB
Member
Perhaps this security company should consider hiring someone to provide, well, security?
Longeyes, it takes 13 weeks to train that Marine in a Corps that is already organized, staffed, trained, and supported.
How long does it take to create an army from scratch? With officers, NCOs, and enlisted all trained up from almost nothing, with a full command and control structure, training, and logistics all implemented from out of thin air? Do this under a brand new government that is still figuring out how to be a government. Answer that and you can see how totally unreasonable your comment is.
How long does it take to create an army from scratch? With officers, NCOs, and enlisted all trained up from almost nothing, with a full command and control structure, training, and logistics all implemented from out of thin air? Do this under a brand new government that is still figuring out how to be a government. Answer that and you can see how totally unreasonable your comment is.
scout26
Member
Longeyes,
Well it took the Army 2 years of ROTC, 8 weeks of Advanced Camp, and 4 months of Officer Basic just to train me as a 2LT.
Then they gave me a Platoon Sergeant with 18 years of experience (which included PLDC, BNCOC, ANCOC, some college classes, and some Special Skill Training - MPI and Physical Security courses), Three E-6 Squad Leaders who all had completed PLDC and BNCOC, and Six E-5's who all had completed PLDC and a couple had done BNCOC. All of them were there to help me out and make sure that I didn't do dumb things to get my soldiers hurt or killed.
Before I took command of my company as a Captain, I had to complete a 6 month Officer Advanced course, do a few years as a staff officer to learn the ins and outs of battalion and brigade operations/functions. I started CAS3 (Combined Arms Staff and Services School), and did a 2 month pre-command course. When I finally took command, the Army again gave me a bunch of NCO's all with years of experience (My 1SG had 25 years in and had his bachelors degree and had completed the resident course at the Sergeant Majors Academy.)
Had I continued my military career I was looking at getting my Masters degree, attending C&GS (Command and General Staff college), probably one the Army War college (or the Air Force or Navy equalivalent), in addition to ever challeging assignments on Brigade, Division and/or Corps level staffs.
So yeah, I can see how in 13 weeks, Iraq should have had a fully functioning standing Army. Given that these soliders have been living in a representative democracy all their lives and live/understand concepts like "Duty, Honor and Country", and the Army Values (Loyalty, Duty, Respect, Selfless Service, Honor, Integrity, Personal Courage).
Augustwest
Member
TexasSIGman-
Interesting application of Godwin's Law, likening Iraq in '06 to Germany in the '40s...
You're comparing remnants of the Nazis attacking our occupying force with a religious/tribal civil conflict among the inhabitants of an occupied country.
Other than the fact that we're the occupiers in both cases, it's apples and oranges.
I've hoped and prayed that I would be wrong in my thoughts that our invasion of Iraq would lead to a dangerous destabilization of the region. I don't think my prayers will be answered...
Interesting application of Godwin's Law, likening Iraq in '06 to Germany in the '40s...
You're comparing remnants of the Nazis attacking our occupying force with a religious/tribal civil conflict among the inhabitants of an occupied country.
Other than the fact that we're the occupiers in both cases, it's apples and oranges.
I've hoped and prayed that I would be wrong in my thoughts that our invasion of Iraq would lead to a dangerous destabilization of the region. I don't think my prayers will be answered...
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
No, I am comparing the media panic and fear mongering of the press and political opponents of the President now and in the 40's.
Notice the quotes of doom and gloom from the Times then as opposed to now in relation to the stories coming out of the occupied areas.
They are EXACTLY the same.
Lobotomy Boy
Member
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One problem is that the Iraqi military force is not really an army but a Shiite super militia. Such militias fuel the potential for Iraq to erupt in a full-blown civil war. We are unable to get the military up to speed because, given the fact that the Iraq military is almost exclusively Shiite, by arming and training them we are escalating the instability.
Thefabulousfink
Member
The similarities between Iraq today and post-war Germany are shocking, of course that also mean that we are in a lot of trouble. We had the armies of 3 countries (over a million men) stationed in Germany at the end of the war and it still took close to 10 years to stabilize the country. The problem these days is the the leaders of our millitary in the Pentagon think that 5 soldiers and a new piece of equipment can do what use to take a whole platoon. Technology is great, and improves the chances of our soldiers surviving, but it is no subsitute for boot on the gound. IMHO of course.
Augustwest
Member
Apologies for misreading...sounded to me like you were comparing the situations, and likelihood of similar outcomes.
I do believe though that the circumstances are so different that even comparing media coverage is pointless.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
No, it's very different circumstances certainly. What gets me, as I said, is how amazingly similar the political spin is to what went on before.
Any chance to attack the current administration, whether it's Bush or Truman.....
Manedwolf
member
Bingo! And that right there negates TexasSigMan's argument. If we had A MILLION TROOPS in the region, we might be able to calm things down. Toys that can blow up things from a distance are nice, but it's always been about boots, sandals, feet on the ground to HOLD TERRITORY and MAINTAIN ORDER. Gadgets won't do that for you, no matter what the civilian MBAheads running the show think.
And here we see the result. And honestly, if it's "not that bad" there, why have we lost M1A tanks to IEDs? Would seem to be that any place that is "not that bad" wouldn't be costing us main battle tanks...
Sounds more like Mujahadeen vs. the Soviets to me. I just hope we don't end up with the same result.
Fly320s
Member
Back to the topic of storming a security company...
It seems to me that a security company in Iraq would be better prepared to defend itself from attack. Considering that a war is still in progress and that guerilla warfare is the battle du jour, I would expect better security from a security company. I didn't read about any armed resistance.
BTW, I meant to put this in General Discussion, not L&P.
It seems to me that a security company in Iraq would be better prepared to defend itself from attack. Considering that a war is still in progress and that guerilla warfare is the battle du jour, I would expect better security from a security company. I didn't read about any armed resistance.
BTW, I meant to put this in General Discussion, not L&P.
Never happened. I haven't heard this myth referenced since about Dec of '03. The Werewolves that Rumsfeld and the right wing press were crowing about when the insurgency started were never really much of a force, if they existed at all. You notice that the talk of how bad things were in Germany just after the war stopped, when no one could document it.
It didn't take ten years to stabilize Germany or Japan, of course we defeated them and destryed their infrastructure in the war, and the population felt as though they were defeated. And we had enough soldiers in place to maintain order.
Invade Iraq...good idea...poorly executed.
Besides the fact that it takes a long time to make an effective army out of whole cloth, where one never existed before, there are other difficulties. In Iraqi culture, family and tribal alliances are often more important then national identities. You can take a Western army and pack it up and move it to another AO. This can be problematic as many Iraqi soldiers won't leave the family home. Transfer a battalion to another province for an operation and you have to deal with a lot of desertions.
That said, there is no civil war going on in Iraq. My son, who is an Infantry SGT and who is presently deployed told me that contact with the enemy is actually down since he arrived in country last Dec. I spoke to him yesterday about that.
The civil war is a fabrication of the anti-American media. He was shocked when I told him what we see on the news here.
Jeff
The Germany analogies are fundementally flawed. The German people knew what it was like to have some semblance of freedom, and the majority of them wanted it back. The Iraq people do not know freedom nor do they want any part of it. They are just waiting for us to leave so that they can put themselves back into the comforting embrace of their shackles.
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