*Paging the idiots pushing smartguns*

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LawDog

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My county uses the Identix LiveScan system for taking fingerprints from accused critters in our jail. Basically, it requires that all four fingers be placed on a scan pad and scanned into the system, then each finger is individually scanned and compared to the four-finger group.

If the two back-to-back scans match, the system allows you to print and/or transmit a set of fingerprints.

This is the idea behind fingerprint recognition smartgun systems. You match your prints to your prints already in the system, and the system allows you to fire the weapon.

Okay.

This system sits in a four-foot tall shockproof metal case, it has an entire harddrive dedicated to nothing but the scan program and we have 'round the clock technical support.

We can't get the bloody thing to match the individual prints to the four-finger set anywhere from 50% to 80% of the time.

Today, for two hours before the start of my eight-hour shift, and all eight hours of my shift we had to re-boot the whole system before each critter was printed.

Print critter. Get next critter. Re-boot system. Wait five minutes for system to come back on-line. Print second critter. Get next critter. Re-boot system. Wait five minutes. Print third critter. Get fourth critter. Re-boot system...

As far as I know, the next shift is still having to do this.

This is the wonder technology that they want to stick in our firearms?

It doesn't work sitting in a shock-proof metal case -- how the hell is it going to work in a recoiling .45ACP?

The scan plates have to be meticulously cleaned with special lint-proof, non-abrasive, delicate, unobtanium pads, otherwise the plates get scratched and the machine can't read the prints reliably -- everday holster wear scrapes bluing off of guns, not to mention delicate scan pads.

It requires an entire hard-drive worth of space to hold the program -- I don't care how high-tech a Glock is, you ain't gonna find room for a hard-drive in the grip.

The critters' fingers damned near have to be surgeon-level clean, otherwise any oil, grease or other staining materials etch the scanning pad and confuses the machine on the next set of prints, meaning you have to pay through the sinuses for a new set of scanning pads -- and if oil left on fingers from an oil change the previous day eats into the scan pad that badly, I don't want to know what various gun care/cleaning products will do to them.

Critter is sweating -- you know, like the sweaty palms you get in a shooting situation -- forget it. System won't reliably read the prints.

Critter is shaking and smearing the print -- you know, like the shakes you get during an adrenaline dump -- forget it. System won't reliably read the prints.

Bloody fingers? Hah! Forget it. And clean those plates before the blood etches them!

When the fonging LiveScan goes into a sulk, we just swear and haul out the printers ink and the print cards. An 80% failure rate isn't a big deal, it's just inconvienent as all get out.

On a handgun, an 80% fail rate is a very big deal.

Why the hell does anyone think this sort of thing is a good idea on a handgun? :scrutiny:

LawDog
 
Lawdog ... thx for yet another entertainingly written piece ... but the subject itself ... hell ... serious, and scary!
Why the hell does anyone think this sort of thing is a good idea on a handgun?
My thinking entirely ... and fully reinforced by your desription of the farce you go thru in order to get your results - any at all.

Joke eh ..... and this is where ''High-Tech'' falls over - on its a$$ .... too damn clever for itself and way too many impedances to good or reliable function.

I wonder if these devices were built by ''committee'' .. seems rather possible ..... or probable!:rolleyes: :p
 
If they want to seriously embrace "smart gun" technology, they should put their money where their mouths are and require LEO's and politicians personal bodyguards to use the equipment. You know - lead by example.
 
There will be smart guns someday. Just like computers used to take up a whole room, science and technology will eventually perfect them. However, you can`t legislate technology. Why not pass a law banning AIDs or cancer? :rolleyes:
 
On a handgun, an 80% fail rate is a very big deal.

On a handgun, an 80% success rate is a very big deal. What a crapshoot, a one-in-five chance your handgun won't work when you need it.

For these things to even be considered, much less put into service, they must have at least a six nines success rate, maybe higher. And that, in my opinion, will be impossible.
 
Lawdog, i love your stuff! you oghta do some guest editorials for WAGC site.
 
Why the hell does anyone think this sort of thing is a good idea on a handgun?

Joke eh ..... and this is where ''High-Tech'' falls over - on its a$$ .... too damn clever for itself and way too many impedances to good or reliable function.
I have to agree with you LawDog and P95Carry.

We have a 'portion' of society whom inherited the 'sheeple' gene. AEB by throwing monies into problems- the symptoms not the disease, the problem will go away. AEB by keep telling/using/hiding behind falsehoods, mis-information- and the populace will embrace as truth.

AEB by these "portions" of society were not exposed to Reality, so they think everyone should live in their fantasy land. Of course they wouldn't know reality if it bit them in the rear.

Just a theory...
 
It doesn't work sitting in a shock-proof metal case -- how the hell is it going to work in a recoiling .45ACP?
On a handgun, an 80% fail rate is a very big deal.

Why the hell does anyone think this sort of thing is a good idea on a handgun?
Oh no, I think you misunderstand. Every such law that exists and every current similar proposal exempts police and military. You know...the only people who have any business having guns anyway. These laws only effect the guns the common man can buy. No one of any value will have to worry about it...


:banghead:
 
I find it unlikely that even semi workable smart gun technology will be based on fingerprints.

Even a 0.80 failure rate in a handgun is unacceptable.

Also - there is a big difference between a system that needs to capture 100% of all fingers printed and a system that just needs to capture 3-8 unique points on a small list of known prints.


I think it is more likely that guns will detect minute grip data.
 
I've used hand geometry scanners and fingerprint systems similar to what lawdog describes. I doubt there is any current or near future biometric technology that will make a stupidgun work.

david
 
The more I think further on this ''smart'' stuff, the less sense it makes, for having ANY reliable and practical applications.

Remember how the computer was gonna produce the wonderful ''paperless society''?? Yeah - right!!:rolleyes:

What other ''smarts'' can we have then?? ..........

The voice recognition gun? - ''I said fire damn you ..... do as your owner tells you'' ..... ''OK, look ..... I know it's 'that' time of the month, but I really do need you to go 'bang', like right now''. ''Oh crap - forget it, too late''.

The iris recognition gun?? - (promotional flier) It's as easy as looking down the muzzle of your gun before you fire ....... just peer down the barrel .... press a button on the grip - and the gun will I/D your iris in an instant. Should you press trigger by mistake ........ do NOT pass go and forget the $200.

Maybe go even further .... have yourself an implant of an I/D chip .... seems something ''they'' want us to do anways. This chip radiates a weak RF signal ..... gun is ''tuned'' to this and this only ..... and ''allows'' correct user to operate gun. Clever eh?! Hmmm .... wonder what a gun's ''bad battery'' day would do to spoil your day? Maybe some broad spectrum harmonic interference could be fun?

Do not choose to use your gun near sub centimeter RF sources - no confrontations to be within 6 feet of an active microwave ..... no confrontations within the confines of a radar installation.!

Let's just go back to good old responsibility, culpability ...... and ''intelligent use'' of ''std'' firearms ........ the perp's will still always have the ''old types'' anyways!
 
Gotta agree with ya, LawDog..

*Paging the idiots pushing smartguns*

Too bad for us that those folks do not have the sense to answer the page.
 
Actually, all my guns now have a "smart" module that controls their function.
It is carbon-based, moveable from gun to gun, works on one (or occasionally two) at a time and operates on fuzzy logic.
It is installed between the grip and the ground.
It is also multi-functional, in addion to controlling, it feeds, cleans and even pays for the gun.
;)
 
Typical.

In the 1996 Olympic Games the powers that be deployed a (relatively simple) Swiss-made hand-scanner system for access to the Olympic Village dining halls. This system worked about 20% of the time. If you had tape on your fingers (used in many sports) it would not work at all. Ever.

By the third day of the Games there were so many p-o'd people they disconnected the units and went to a manual system... having a volunteer physically look at the billboard-size credential cards we all had to wear. No more delays. Imagine that !

This system is still in use at the Olympic Training Centers in San Diego and Colorado Springs. It still doesn't work reliably.

Now consider that the hand scanner really only looked at about 7 or 8 discrete data points compared to hundreds or more for a true print recognition device and you can see where this is going.

Murphy rears his ugly head.
 
"Could you wait a minute until this thing reboots?"
Any self-respecting computer geek will figure out how to hack those things within minutes.
They will be totally unreliable in conditions of rain, snow, bloody hands, sweaty hands and physical impact.
The system is designed not to work. That way the grabbers can sigh with mock frustration and say, well it just doesn't work, therefore all guns must be made illegal.
 
All the talk is of a system being designed and installed on handguns. The proper functioning of the system will be the owners problem. I can see now the factory claiming all the reported failures as operator error.
 
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