Panama City School Board Hostage Situatuation and Shooting w/ Video

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Mr.Davis

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Earlier today a hostage situation unfolded at a school board meeting in Panama City, FL.

A disgruntled shooter took some board members hostage and after shooing some people out of the room, talked for a few moments then started shooting. According to police, the shooter killed himself after being wounded by an armed security guard.

Here's the article and some video from CNN - Word of warning - it's pretty intense.

Here is a different, wider angle video of the shooting.

This is a rare scenario in which we have a ton of information about a real-world shooting incident along with video to analyze. I'd be interested to hear what you all have to say about it from a strategies and tactics perspective.

Some questions:

- What should the board members have done while trapped in the room with the nutjob? Sat quietly? Engaged in conversation? Tried to run?
- If you were in the room when he first approached the podium and showed the gun, would you shoot at him then in the chaos, or leave the room quietly?
- Once the nutjob started shooting, how would you have reacted?
 
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Yes we can say brave about that woman who tried to hit the gun out of his hand with her purse.

But we can also say STUPID!




It's also more than obvious that if ANY ONE would have been allowed to carry a CCW in this situation, it would have been over almost before it started.
 
Think I counted 4 shots from the gunman, including the one he pumped into the carpet at his feet and 5 or 6 from the security guard. Total time from first shot to gunman hitting the floor - 8 seconds. Not a whole lot of time if you think about it...
 
Dang that school board member is one cool cookie. To sit and talk to that guy in a calm collected way like that is amazing.

If I saw it right the BG fired two shots at the guard after he was shot, couldn't tell if he went down after that because he was shot a second time or the fist shot caught up with him.

A point here. The BG went down but he was not out, he was still able to use the weapon (on him self). Something to be aware of.
 
It's also more than obvious that if ANY ONE would have been allowed to carry a CCW in this situation, it would have been over almost before it started.
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Assuming the ccw'er was aware, and competent enough with his weapon to get a CNS shot while under stress....then yes.

A point here. The BG went down but he was not out, he was still able to use the weapon (on him self). Something to be aware of.
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I see this as a moment when innocent lives were still at risk. When people say shoot until the threat is stopped that is what it means, not shoot untill the threat falls down. If he was still in control of the weapon and able to move then he is still a threat.
 
Luckily for the board members the shooter's technique sucked. No Weaver, Chapman, or even a two handed grip. Chalk one up for armed security which I'm sure the board is happy it paid for. While I don't condone the actions of the shooter, I'm afraid I can sympathize with the frustration losing a job through no fault of your own can bring. There are many people out there in the same boat who deal with the problem more constructively. That said, we will see this type of thing again.
 
From what I've read, the dude seemed off kilter to begin with. He also had a history of misconduct with a firearm.

Some people say he was using blanks, I find it much more likely that he missed on purpose or due to lack of technique. Trying to get the so called police assisted suicide methinks.


At least he had the modicum of humanity to allow the other citizens and any children to leave.


There is another video of afterwords when SWAT attempts to clear the room after its all said and done. They look either disappointed or relieved, can't tell which.


The 3 main points of discussion that I think of (aside from idle gossip about the aggressor) that pertain to S&T are:

1. When should have the security guard engaged the gunman?
2. If you were in the crowd, and where told to leave while others stayed, what would you do if you had your CCW? What would you do if you didn't have your CCW with you? Keep in mind this is a school zone.
3. When the Board member tried to talk to the perp, what would you have said differently?


Edit: Kudos to the Retired LEO and the School board members.

Luckily for the board members the shooter's technique sucked. No Weaver, Chapman, or even a two handed grip.
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He has a new style of shooting obviously.
 

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Here are my thoughts:

1) Gun free zone = Target rich environment: This was probably a "defense free zone", meaning only the criminal and the security guard were carrying weapons. That bad policy helped create this situation.

2) At least somebody had a gun: Fortunately, in this "defense free zone", armed security was provided. While not totally effective, that security likely prevented anyone from being killed.

3) Um, don't attack someone three times your size using your purse: The woman who attacked with her purse...WOW. She's lucky she isn't dead. Fortunately (?) the gunman knew who his targets were and despite her attack he didn't kill her. The lesson there is "once you escape a hostage situation, don't go back in for any reason." and "TV isn't real."

4) Be confident with your carry weapon in suboptimal conditions: The security guard, if he/she was in the room the whole time, was uncomfortable enough with their weapon that they couldn't take a shot at any point. Practice with your weapon so that you know you could take down someone like this from across the room if the opportunity arises (if the backstop is relatively clear, for example)

5) Be careful engaging with a nutjob verbally. His first target was the man who had been yapping with him the most, the superintendent who openly claimed to have been the one who signed the termination papers for the guy's wife. Was there any question who he was going to shoot first? You're unlikely to talk down a nutjob, and very likely to send them over the edge by engaging in so much conversation. I'd recommend keeping your mouth shut and the attention off of you while you look for an opportunity to resist or escape.

6) Warning signs: the nutjub's Facebook was full of anti-Democrat, anti-Republican, anti-religion, anti-rich ranting, and he called himself a freedom fighter. He saw himself as a man on a mission against the establishment. He also had a past history of violent crime, including stalking.

7) Fighting skills: a situation like this is when some sort of martial arts training would come in really handy. There wasn't necessarily a chance for any of the captives to fight the man, but he was large and out of shape, so someone with a reasonable skill level probably could have put him down and taken control of the firearm in a worst-case scenario.

8) Have a plan for when he starts shooting: A number of the board members just sat there when he started shooting. Have an action plan if the crap hits the fan. SWAT was outside, and you can reasonably assume they'll burst in and start shooting at the first *bang*. I'd recommend running as fast as possible for a door, or getting behind some concealment far from the shooter. Attacking the shooter at that point would likely just result in you getting in SWAT's line of fire.
That's all I can think of for now.
 
Good points from Mr Davis. Those board members had serious survival skill issues. Why stay in the room with a madman, even if you were armed yourself? Nothing good can ever come of that.
 
crazy lady. crazy dude. looks like he might have been on something the way he was staggering around. glad no good guys were hurt.
 
That woman might not have been tactically correct, but wow-she was already in the clear, and tried to save her compatriots.

Give her a gun and some training, and she can go to war with me anytime-

Larry
 
1. When should have the security guard engaged the gunman?
2. If you were in the crowd, and where told to leave while others stayed, what would you do if you had your CCW? What would you do if you didn't have your CCW with you? Keep in mind this is a school zone.
3. When the Board member tried to talk to the perp, what would you have said differently?
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1: The security guard might have engaged while the gun was lowered and the gunman was not looking in his direction. But that is always dicey. He did okay by engaging the shooter after shots were fired.

2. If I had my CCW on me (illegally because of the school zone policy), I would probably not have pulled until he started shooting at others or I was specifically being targeted. If I was unarmed, I would have left as ordered and tried to be as good a witness to first responders as possible about the location, disposition of the shooter and the type of weapon he was armed with.

3. I would not have inflamed the shooter by saying "I know what you're about..." or as another board member said: "Please dont shoot me. I have a good life!"
 
If she'd been armed with something better than a purse, it would have been a perfect shot to the back of his torso.

A viable, fully armed security response should have come as soon as he started spray painting symbols on the wall. When the firearm was drawn after that bizarre conduct, he should have been shot dead. To wait AT ALL is to let him make the decision about who lives and dies. That's not acceptable.

I would probably not have pulled until he started shooting at others or I was specifically being targeted.
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That's a major mistake. Once he has announced he's completely insane by spray painting symbols then drawn a firearm, everyone in that room is imminent peril of death from an unlawful source. THAT is the green light. THAT is the time to either get out or start shooting. Hesitation puts the nutcase in charge, and it's just lucky he wasn't more bloody minded or a better shot.
 
I would probably not have pulled until he started shooting at others or I was specifically being targeted.
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That's a major mistake. Once he has announced he's completely insane by spray painting symbols then drawn a firearm, everyone in that room is imminent peril of death from an unlawful source. THAT is the green light. THAT is the time to either get out or start shooting. Hesitation puts the nutcase in charge, and it's just lucky he wasn't more bloody minded or a better shot.
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Yes, I hadnt thought that through enough. I stand corrected. Thanks!
 
Well now we know what a 2 pound purse with nothing in it, swung by an 85 pound granny will do to the back of a 325 pound crazy guy.

Huge difference between well-intentioned and good idea. I'm really glad she did not have a gun.
 
7) Fighting skills: a situation like this is when some sort of martial arts training would come in really handy. There wasn't necessarily a chance for any of the captives to fight the man, but he was large and out of shape, so someone with a reasonable skill level probably could have put him down and taken control of the firearm in a worst-case scenario.
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Wrong, wrong, wrong! Have you NOT seen this guy!?

Roy-Nelson.gif
 
While I can see giving kudos to the woman with the purse for having the guts to initiate an attack, the truth is her actions were incredibly dangerous to everybody involved except the gunman. That sort of foolish attack may just have well set the gunman off. Seriously, what was she thinkin'??
 
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