Papa Johns Pizza Employee Acquitted of Involuntary Manslaughter

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Burglary is a forcible felony. Stealing or theft in some states is not a forcible felony and the elements of those crimes do not include the threat of or use of force to commit the criminal act. Burglary doesn't have to contain the threat of or use of force to commit the crime but it's defined as entering a structure with the intent to steal something. Some states only cover buildings and dwellings with their burglary law and have separate statutes covering motor vehicles, railroad cars etc.

When you talk about what crimes you may use deadly force to thwart you must be aware of what the law actually says in your jurisdiction and what the law says are the elements of the crime to make it an offense you can use force to thwart. For example, before I retired we had a case where a man shot a person who had broken into his late mother's vacant house, the man saw light there, discovered the person in the house, went over to check it out and shot him. The shooting occurred during a bad thunderstorm. If the shooting was justified hinged on if the intruder was a burglar (entered the house with intent to steal something) or a trespasser. The "victim" survived and his story is that he was on foot and entered the house to get out of the storm. States Attorney sent the case to the Grand Jury who refused to indict the shooter. This could easily have gone the other way. Of the states attorney could have simply believed the "victim's" story and charged the shooter.

It's very important to know exactly what the law says about the elements of the crime and if the crime you are losing deadly force to thwart is actually what you think it is. You also need to know how the courts in your jurisdiction have ruled on these kinds of cases. The guy who shot the man he caught in his late mother's home could be coming up for parole right now had the investigating officers and the states attorney wanted to look at it as a case of trespass. As it was the states attorney covered himself by taking it to the grand jury. Our detective who handled the case told me after he testified before the grand jury that an indictment pretty much hinged on how he wrote his report and what he said during testimony. It would have been very easy to sell people on the idea that the poor guy entered a vacant house to get out of a storm and was shot for his trouble.
Truthfully I was surprised to read this statute. I did not go looking for it, rather an AZ CCW applicant has to certify having studied 13-4 and -31 in addition to completing an approved course. My understanding of "burglary" is that it is stealing from a home or other structure where no people are present, or doing it in such a way as not to encounter the people, for example stealing out of a garage as opposed to the appurtenant home, whereas "robbery" is stealing from a person or people, whether inside a building or not. So on that basis, I thought "burglary" is a property crime. Even in Cali a person gets the assumption of being in fear for their life if someone breaks into their home while they are inside, but this statute looks to me like let's say you drive up to your house and see the front door open and some @#$% carrying your TV out, or you see someone burglarizing your neighbor,'s house, theoretically you could try to prevent the crime with force, even deadly force. Personally I would get out of Dodge as fast as possible and call 911, but this statute looks like that's not required here. BTW, "criminal trespass" is also mentioned in one of the other chapters, I can't remember exactly what it said about it.
 
English common law precedents which are older than criminal codes here in the U.S., took into account whether or not a violent encounter might occur during a burglary. If you read legal history, you will come across terms such as the "hours of mischief", "stand and identify", etc. that come from an era where criminals often used the cover of night to go forth and do their dirty deeds. Ben Franklin mentions in his autobiography promoting a campaign to light the streets in Philadelphia to prevent robbers etc.

Because it is not always easy to tell if someone is home or not, the assumption is that burglars will have to take the risk of the encounter--a forceful entry into a house where a resident is present does not allow the resident much if any time to ascertain the burglar/robber intentions--thus lethal force might be reasonable under such circumstances (absent other factors). Attempting to stop property theft by someone breaking into your car outside your house does not risk a violent encounter with a resident and so the onus is on the resident if they go forth to stop it with lethal force unless an escalation occurs (e.g. the resident shouts stop that and the thug/burglar pulls out a gun).

Not directly stated in the statute but I am sure is in the caselaw, the amount of force used to stop property being stolen does not included lethal force as that is reserved for risk of serious injury or death. Proportionality of the amount of force used to repel a crime is part of the reasonableness of using force factor in almost all if not all states.
 
The first statute I posted is specifically about use of force in property crimes and says so explicitly right in the title, Justification; use of physical force in defense of property, then cites the other sections as being ones that apply to same.

If @#$% is in the doorway with your TV he has not yet stolen it, but IAC his crime is not complete until he gets away with your property.
 
Not directly stated in the statute
Here is the statute again, emphasis added:

13-411 A. A person is justified in threatening or using both physical force and deadly physical force against another if and to the extent the person reasonably believes that physical force or deadly physical force is immediately necessary to prevent the other's commission of arson of an occupied structure under section 13-1704, burglary in the second or first degree under section 13-1507 or 13-1508, kidnapping under section 13-1304, manslaughter under section 13-1103, second or first degree murder under section 13-1104 or 13-1105, sexual conduct with a minor under section 13-1405, sexual assault under section 13-1406, child molestation under section 13-1410, armed robbery under section 13-1904 or aggravated assault under section 13-1204, subsection A, paragraphs 1 and 2.
 
In the facts that you cited above, it might also be that 13-407 governs if you surprise a burglar in the act--

13-407. Justification; use of physical force in defense of premises

A. A person or his agent in lawful possession or control of premises is justified in threatening to use deadly physical force or in threatening or using physical force against another when and to the extent that a reasonable person would believe it immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of a criminal trespass by the other person in or upon the premises.

B. A person may use deadly physical force under subsection A only in the defense of himself or third persons as described in sections 13-405 and 13-406.

C. In this section, "premises" means any real property and any structure, movable or immovable, permanent or temporary, adapted for both human residence and lodging whether occupied or not.

What I was talking about is the specific proportionality requirement--it is folded into the reasonableness factor at the beginning of the statute. That is probably in AZ caselaw--Mitch Vilos's take (he is a criminal atty and cowriter of the Self Defense Laws of 50 States)indicates that you may not use deadly force (but can threaten to) unless you face a direct threat of serious injury or death.

A burglar with their hands full of TV heading out the door would not so constitute such a threat, even if they initially entered through breaking in a window, and you might have been justified shooting them before they completed getting inside the house.


13-418 mixes it up even more,
13-418. Justification; use of force in defense of residential structure or occupied vehicles; definitions

A. Notwithstanding any other provision of this chapter, a person is justified in threatening to use or using physical force or deadly physical force against another person if the person reasonably believes himself or another person to be in imminent peril of death or serious physical injury and the person against whom the physical force or deadly physical force is threatened or used was in the process of unlawfully or forcefully entering, or had unlawfully or forcefully entered, a residential structure or occupied vehicle, or had removed or was attempting to remove another person against the other person's will from the residential structure or occupied vehicle.

B. A person has no duty to retreat before threatening or using physical force or deadly physical force pursuant to this section.

C. For the purposes of this section:

1. "Residential structure" has the same meaning prescribed in section 13-1501.

2. "Vehicle" means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, that is designed to transport persons or property.

The ambiguity of the statutes, probably passed at different times because of different cases, plus the interpretation of the courts in concrete cases is why it is best never to have to pull the trigger.

The general principle here is that the deadly force use is reserved for only when a person has a reasonable (objective not personal) belief that they face grave harm or death from the actions of the perpetrators. The force used to repel the assault of the criminal must be proportional to offense committed.
 
This is why it's important to know the law in your jurisdiction and how they are applied. Here is the law in Illinois:
http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs4.asp?DocName=072000050HArt.+7&ActID=1876&ChapterID=53&SeqStart=8300000&SeqEnd=9900000

(720 ILCS 5/Art. 7 heading) ARTICLE 7. JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE; EXONERATION
(720 ILCS 5/7-1) (from Ch. 38, par. 7-1)
Sec. 7-1. Use of force in defense of person.
(a) A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or another against such other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or another, or the commission of a forcible felony.
(b) In no case shall any act involving the use of force justified under this Section give rise to any claim or liability brought by or on behalf of any person acting within the definition of "aggressor" set forth in Section 7-4 of this Article, or the estate, spouse, or other family member of such a person, against the person or estate of the person using such justified force, unless the use of force involves willful or wanton misconduct.
(Source: P.A. 93-832, eff. 7-28-04.)

Sec. 7-2. Use of force in defense of dwelling.
(a) A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate such other's unlawful entry into or attack upon a dwelling. However, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if:
(1) The entry is made or attempted in a violent, riotous, or tumultuous manner, and he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent an assault upon, or offer of personal violence to, him or another then in the dwelling, or
(2) He reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent the commission of a felony in the dwelling.
(b) In no case shall any act involving the use of force justified under this Section give rise to any claim or liability brought by or on behalf of any person acting within the definition of "aggressor" set forth in Section 7-4 of this Article, or the estate, spouse, or other family member of such a person, against the person or estate of the person using such justified force, unless the use of force involves willful or wanton misconduct.
(Source: P.A. 93-832, eff. 7-28-04.)

(720 ILCS 5/7-3) (from Ch. 38, par. 7-3)
Sec. 7-3. Use of force in defense of other property.
(a) A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate such other's trespass on or other tortious or criminal interference with either real property (other than a dwelling) or personal property, lawfully in his possession or in the possession of another who is a member of his immediate family or household or of a person whose property he has a legal duty to protect. However, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
(b) In no case shall any act involving the use of force justified under this Section give rise to any claim or liability brought by or on behalf of any person acting within the definition of "aggressor" set forth in Section 7-4 of this Article, or the estate, spouse, or other family member of such a person, against the person or estate of the person using such justified force, unless the use of force involves willful or wanton misconduct.
(Source: P.A. 93-832, eff. 7-28-04.)

(720 ILCS 5/7-4) (from Ch. 38, par. 7-4)
Sec. 7-4. Use of force by aggressor. The justification described in the preceding Sections of this Article is not available to a person who:
(a) is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(b) initially provokes the use of force against himself, with the intent to use such force as an excuse to inflict bodily harm upon the assailant; or
(c) otherwise initially provokes the use of force against himself, unless:
(1) such force is so great that he reasonably believes that he is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm, and that he has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(2) in good faith, he withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.
(Source: Laws 1961, p. 1983.)
(720 ILCS 5/7-2) (from Ch. 38, par. 7-2)


Now let's talk about use of force as it would apply to burglary: Illinois law allows one to use deadly force to thwart the commission of a forcible felony. Forcible felonies in Illinois are defined here:
http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs4.asp?DocName=072000050HArt.+2&ActID=1876&ChapterID=53&SeqStart=1000000&SeqEnd=5200000

(720 ILCS 5/2-8) (from Ch. 38, par. 2-8)
Sec. 2-8. "Forcible felony". "Forcible felony" means treason, first degree murder, second degree murder, predatory criminal sexual assault of a child, aggravated criminal sexual assault, criminal sexual assault, robbery, burglary, residential burglary, aggravated arson, arson, aggravated kidnaping, kidnaping, aggravated battery resulting in great bodily harm or permanent disability or disfigurement and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.
(Source: P.A. 88-277; 89-428, eff. 12-13-95; 89-462, eff. 5-29-96.)


Now we need to know what burglary is under Illinois law:

http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs4.asp?DocName=072000050HArt.+19&ActID=1876&ChapterID=53&SeqStart=63000000&SeqEnd=63800000


(720 ILCS 5/Art. 19 heading) ARTICLE 19. BURGLARY
(720 ILCS 5/19-1) (from Ch. 38, par. 19-1)
Sec. 19-1. Burglary.
(a) A person commits burglary when without authority he or she knowingly enters or without authority remains within a building, housetrailer, watercraft, aircraft, motor vehicle, railroad car, or any part thereof, with intent to commit therein a felony or theft. This offense shall not include the offenses set out in Section 4-102 of the Illinois Vehicle Code.


And here is residential burglary:

(720 ILCS 5/19-3) (from Ch. 38, par. 19-3)
Sec. 19-3. Residential burglary.
(a) A person commits residential burglary when he or she knowingly and without authority enters or knowingly and without authority remains within the dwelling place of another, or any part thereof, with the intent to commit therein a felony or theft. This offense includes the offense of burglary as defined in Section 19-1.
(a-5) A person commits residential burglary when he or she falsely represents himself or herself, including but not limited to falsely representing himself or herself to be a representative of any unit of government or a construction, telecommunications, or utility company, for the purpose of gaining entry to the dwelling place of another, with the intent to commit therein a felony or theft or to facilitate the commission therein of a felony or theft by another.
(b) Sentence. Residential burglary is a Class 1 felony.
(Source: P.A. 96-1113, eff. 1-1-11; 97-1108, eff. 1-1-13.)


As you can see, the offender has to enter the building with the intent to commit a felony or theft. In the case I referenced, the intruder claimed he only entered the vacant house to get out of the storm. So the justification for the use of deadly force hinged on his intent. Did he intend to steal something or was he simply guilty of criminal trespass. Criminal Trespass to a Residence wouldn't have applied because the home was vacant.

(720 ILCS 5/19-4) (from Ch. 38, par. 19-4)
Sec. 19-4. Criminal trespass to a residence.
(a) (1) A person commits criminal trespass to a residence when, without authority, he or she knowingly enters or remains within any residence, including a house trailer that is the dwelling place of another.
(2) A person commits criminal trespass to a residence when, without authority, he or she knowingly enters the residence of another and knows or has reason to know that one or more persons is present or he or she knowingly enters the residence of another and remains in the residence after he or she knows or has reason to know that one or more persons is present.
(a-5) For purposes of this Section, in the case of a multi-unit residential building or complex, "residence" shall only include the portion of the building or complex which is the actual dwelling place of any person and shall not include such places as common recreational areas or lobbies.
(b) Sentence.
(1) Criminal trespass to a residence under paragraph (1) of subsection (a) is a Class A misdemeanor

(2) Criminal trespass to a residence under paragraph (2) of subsection (a) is a Class 4 felony.
(Source: P.A. 97-1108, eff. 1-1-13; 98-756, eff. 7-16-14.)


The person who was shot contended that he wasn't in the vacant house to commit burglary or another felony but simply to get out of the storm. That would make him guilty of Criminal Trespass to Real Property which is not a forcible felony
http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs4.asp?DocName=072000050HArt.+21,+Subdiv.+5&ActID=1876&ChapterID=53&SeqStart=65800000&SeqEnd=66900000

(720 ILCS 5/21-3) (from Ch. 38, par. 21-3)
Sec. 21-3. Criminal trespass to real property.
(a) A person commits criminal trespass to real property when he or she:
(1) knowingly and without lawful authority enters or remains within or on a building;
(2) enters upon the land of another, after receiving, prior to the entry, notice from the owner or occupant that the entry is forbidden;
(3) remains upon the land of another, after receiving notice from the owner or occupant to depart;
(3.5) presents false documents or falsely represents his or her identity orally to the owner or occupant of a building or land in order to obtain permission from the owner or occupant to enter or remain in the building or on the land;
(3.7) intentionally removes a notice posted on residential real estate as required by subsection (l) of Section 15-1505.8 of Article XV of the Code of Civil Procedure before the date and time set forth in the notice; or
(4) enters a field used or capable of being used for growing crops, an enclosed area containing livestock, an agricultural building containing livestock, or an orchard in or on a motor vehicle (including an off-road vehicle, motorcycle, moped, or any other powered two-wheel vehicle) after receiving, prior to the entry, notice from the owner or occupant that the entry is forbidden or remains upon or in the area after receiving notice from the owner or occupant to depart.


The first statute I posted is specifically about use of force in property crimes and says so explicitly right in the title, Justification; use of physical force in defense of property, then cites the other sections as being ones that apply to same.

If @#$% is in the doorway with your TV he has not yet stolen it, but IAC his crime is not complete until he gets away with your property.

No! he completed the crime, at least in Illinois when he entered the residence with the intent to take the television. That is how burglary is defined. If you meet him coming out the door you aren't justified in using deadly force to prevent his escape. You are getting into a totally different area of the law, making a Citizen's Arrest. Not all states have a law that even permits a private citizen to make an arrest. I don't know what Arizona law says but here is what Illinois law says:

http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs4.asp?DocName=072500050HArt.+107&ActID=1966&ChapterID=54&SeqStart=9200000&SeqEnd=10900000

(725 ILCS 5/107-3) (from Ch. 38, par. 107-3)
Sec. 107-3. Arrest by private person.
Any person may arrest another when he has reasonable grounds to believe that an offense other than an ordinance violation is being committed.
(Source: Laws 1963, p. 2836.)


The operative word here is is. The crime has to be in progress. So what force can you use to make that arrest? We have to go back to the Justifiable Use of Force - Exoneration Section of the ILCS:
http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs4.asp?DocName=072000050HArt.+7&ActID=1876&ChapterID=53&SeqStart=8300000&SeqEnd=9900000

720 ILCS 5/7-6) (from Ch. 38, par. 7-6)
Sec. 7-6. Private person's use of force in making arrest.
(a) A private person who makes, or assists another private person in making a lawful arrest is justified in the use of any force which he would be justified in using if he were summoned or directed by a peace officer to make such arrest, except that he is justified in the use of force likely to cause death or great bodily harm only when he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or another.
(b) A private person who is summoned or directed by a peace officer to assist in making an arrest which is unlawful, is justified in the use of any force which he would be justified in using if the arrest were lawful, unless he knows that the arrest is unlawful.
(Source: Laws 1961, p. 1983.)


The ILCS says you can use the same force that a Peace Officer can to make the arrest. This is what force the law says a Peace Officer can use to affect an arrest:

(720 ILCS 5/7-5) (from Ch. 38, par. 7-5)
Sec. 7-5. Peace officer's use of force in making arrest. (a) A peace officer, or any person whom he has summoned or directed to assist him, need not retreat or desist from efforts to make a lawful arrest because of resistance or threatened resistance to the arrest. He is justified in the use of any force which he reasonably believes to be necessary to effect the arrest and of any force which he reasonably believes to be necessary to defend himself or another from bodily harm while making the arrest. However, he is justified in using force likely to cause death or great bodily harm only when he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or such other person, or when he reasonably believes both that:
(1) Such force is necessary to prevent the arrest from being defeated by resistance or escape; and
(2) The person to be arrested has committed or attempted a forcible felony which involves the infliction or threatened infliction of great bodily harm or is attempting to escape by use of a deadly weapon, or otherwise indicates that he will endanger human life or inflict great bodily harm unless arrested without delay.
(b) A peace officer making an arrest pursuant to an invalid warrant is justified in the use of any force which he would be justified in using if the warrant were valid, unless he knows that the warrant is invalid.
(Source: P.A. 84-1426.)
(720 ILCS 5/7-5.5)
Sec. 7-5.5. Prohibited use of force by a peace officer.
(a) A peace officer shall not use a chokehold in the performance of his or her duties, unless deadly force is justified under Article 7 of this Code.
(b) A peace officer shall not use a chokehold, or any lesser contact with the throat or neck area of another, in order to prevent the destruction of evidence by ingestion.
(c) As used in this Section, "chokehold" means applying any direct pressure to the throat, windpipe, or airway of another with the intent to reduce or prevent the intake of air. "Chokehold" does not include any holding involving contact with the neck that is not intended to reduce the intake of air.
(Source: P.A. 99-352, eff. 1-1-16; 99-642, eff. 7-28-16.)


So in Illinois you would have to be able to articulate that shooting the guy coming out of your front door with your TV in his hands that shooting him was your only option to prevent his escape and that unless you stopped his escape right then he would have endangered human life or inflicted great bodily harm on someone unless he was stopped right then.

As you can see, these issues are a lot more complicated then most people believe and unfortunately more complicated then many self defense advocates lead the public to believe. It pays to know what the law actually says and how the courts apply the law in your jurisdiction. You can't boil this stuff down to a slogan you can put on a bumper sticker......It's much more complicated then that.[/COLOR]
 
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Interesting to see the IL laws, thanks for posting.

If burglary is only forcible entry or entry by pretending to be from the government or a utility, where does the theft part come in? I would have thought (this probably comes under "you know what ASSUME spells"...) forcible entry is the crime of breaking in, and burglary is the crime of stealing after BG gets inside.

As noted above, this is for me strictly a point of interest, if I did come home and see from the outside someone burglarizing the place I would not engage.
 
If burglary is only forcible entry or entry by pretending to be from the government or a utility, where does the theft part come in? I would have thought (this probably comes under "you know what ASSUME spells"...) forcible entry is the crime of breaking in, and burglary is the crime of stealing after BG gets inside.
Burglary is entering with the intent to commit theft or a felony. It doesn't have to be forceful entry. You simply have to enter with the intent to commit a theft or a felony.

This is the definition of burglary:

(720 ILCS 5/Art. 19 heading) ARTICLE 19. BURGLARY
(720 ILCS 5/19-1) (from Ch. 38, par. 19-1)
Sec. 19-1. Burglary.
(a) A person commits burglary when without authority he or she knowingly enters or without authority remains within a building, housetrailer, watercraft, aircraft, motor vehicle, railroad car, or any part thereof, with intent to commit therein a felony or theft.


If you enter any building, housetrailer, watercraft, aircraft, motor vehicle, railroad car, or any part thereof, with the intent to commit a felony or a theft while inside you are committing the crime of burglary. You can enter through an open door and you are still committing a burglary. It doesn't have to be a forceful entry to be a forcible felony. The crime of burglary without any force involved is a forcible felony.

Forcible felonies in Illinois are treason, first degree murder, second degree murder, predatory criminal sexual assault of a child, aggravated criminal sexual assault, criminal sexual assault, robbery, burglary, residential burglary, aggravated arson, arson, aggravated kidnaping, kidnaping, aggravated battery resulting in great bodily harm or permanent disability or disfigurement and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.

Residential burglary is a separate offense from Burglary and pretending to be a government or utility company employee in order to gain entrance so you can commit a theft or other felony is simply an element of that crime. The main difference between residential burglary and burglary is in the punishment one can receive. Here are the penalties for burglary:

(b) Sentence.
Burglary committed in, and without causing damage to, a watercraft, aircraft, motor vehicle, railroad car, or any part thereof is a Class 3 felony. Burglary committed in a building, housetrailer, or any part thereof or while causing damage to a watercraft, aircraft, motor vehicle, railroad car, or any part thereof is a Class 2 felony. A burglary committed in a school, day care center, day care home, group day care home, or part day child care facility, or place of worship is a Class 1 felony, except that this provision does not apply to a day care center, day care home, group day care home, or part day child care facility operated in a private residence used as a dwelling.


Residential burglary is considered a more serious crime and it carries higher penalties:

(b) Sentence. Residential burglary is a Class 1 felony.
(Source: P.A. 96-1113, eff. 1-1-11; 97-1108, eff. 1-1-13.)
 
I strongly recommend the Law of Self Defense Level 1, State Specific, and Defense of Property course modules available from Law of Self Defense.
 
If the guy was driving around drunk and angry enough to throw a cinder block through a window to get a pizza then papa John's provided a community service by riding the world of such a piece of work.
 
You can’t shoot someone for stealing at all. Period! Not in the US anyway. Under some circumstances you can use deadly force to thwart a forcible felony which is a very narrow category of crimes.

I believe this statement is in error. In Maine, the law allows you to use deadly force to protect your property, and this even extends to theft from out buildings.

I'm not saying I recommend it, but I have read the statute and it is pretty straight forward and clear.
 
n Maine, the law allows you to use deadly force to protect your property, and this even extends to theft from out buildings
Check your facts.

The law allows the use of reasonable, non-deadly physical force to prevent the theft of property.

Deadly force is permitted under certain circumstances in the defense of "highly defensible property"--not the same as theft.

I wouldn't try it. Even if the actor does everything lawfully and the evidence supports him, the expenses incurred to prudently engage legal representation would likely be crippling.

Texas alone permits the use of deadly force to prevent theft, but only under a hopscotch of conditions, and again, the expenses would surely outweigh any benefit unless the property were prize breeding stock--if then.
 
Burglary is entering with the intent to commit theft or a felony. It doesn't have to be forceful entry. You simply have to enter with the intent to commit a theft or a felony.
Pretty hard to prove intent if the person didn't follow through. Mr @#$% breaks into your house intending to steal anything he thinks is valuable and kill anyone who gets in his way, but your parakeet charms him and he leaves. He's damaged wherever he broke in through but didn't carry out his intent. Does he get charged with anything? OTOH, if he broke in and instead of carrying out his original intent became enraged when he saw your modern art collection and defaced all the paintings, then what? He gets charged for damaging the paintings but what about "burglary"?
 
Pretty hard to prove intent if the person didn't follow through.

Yep, that’s the way the law is written. I didn’t write the law, I just enforced it.

Mr @#$% breaks into your house intending to steal anything he thinks is valuable and kill anyone who gets in his way, but your parakeet charms him and he leaves. He's damaged wherever he broke in through but didn't carry out his intent.

Criminal trespass, destruction of property, maybe possession of burglary tools......

OTOH, if he broke in and instead of carrying out his original intent became enraged when he saw your modern art collection and defaced all the paintings, then what? He gets charged for damaging the paintings but what about "burglary"?

If your modern art collection is valuable enough to reach the threshold of a felony, then he committed burglary because the law says theft or other felony.

The laws are what they are. They can be complicated and often they don’t make sense. And that’s precisely why it’s not a good idea to make decisions on when you can use deadly force without a thorough understanding of what the laws actually mean. Police officers got a minimum of 40 hours of criminal law and procedures in the academy when I started and get continual updates throughout their careers. And that gives them a little more understanding then a layman, but it doesn’t make them attorneys.

Knowing what the law actually says is important, but that’s just the beginning. You have to know how the law is applied where you live. Prosecutors and judges are elected in most parts of the country. This injects politics and community standards of justice into the system. That’s why the case I gave as an example where the man shot the intruder in his late mother’s house went to the grand jury. This gave the states attorney an out at election time as many people would have felt that charging the man was wrong even though it would have been completely justified under the law. By taking it to the grand jury he let the people decide if there were charges or not.

I can relate another shooting from here that wasn’t charged and wasn’t even presented to the grand jury. There was a different states attorney in office then. We were having a terrible problem with people stealing anhydrous ammonia to use to cook meth. This was a hazard not only to the people stealing it and cooking it, but to the public because they sometimes broke valves on the tanks and then people had to be evacuated from the area until the tanks were sealed.

There was a farm supply/trucking company and they had experienced several thefts out of their storage yard. One night three tweakers stole anhydrous again, what they didn’t know was that the owner had an alarm on his yard. He came out with a 12 gauge shotgun and shot them in the back while they were running away. No charges were ever filed. Nothing about that use of deadly force was remotely legal under Illinois law. But the states attorney wanted to send a message to the meth cooks. No one died, just like in the first case I mentioned and the decisions might have been different if the criminals were killed.

Of course one can’t count on how similar cases were handled in the past when you make a deadly force decision. Know what the law says....don’t count on how it was enforced in the past.
 
Mr @#$% breaks into your house intending to steal anything he thinks is valuable and kill anyone who gets in his way, but your parakeet charms him and he leaves. He's damaged wherever he broke in through but didn't carry out his intent. Does he get charged with anything?
Keep in mind that what someone who breaks into a house is or may be charged with with is completely irrelevant to the question of justification of any force used against him, and it really shouldn't matter to the defender at all.
 
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One of the problems with only knowing the black letter law of the statute is that the courts may have interpreted that statute in a way that is not obvious through cases applying the statute to specific case facts. Then there is as Jeff White says, the politics and personnel enforcing the law in the area of the incident. And at last, civil liability also lurks out there as an additional danger.

The statutes themselves are often a mish mash of laws, sometimes with apparent contradictions, that have been passed over a century or so. So courts do not normally read a statute in isolation from other statutes that apply to the general situation but try the reconcile any ambiguities and contradictions that occur over time through interpretations of the laws in specific cases.

If they are available in your state, pattern jury instructions regarding crimes etc. are often a valuable resource in determining how laws are to be applied by a jury. Juries do not get caselaw precedent to take back into the jury room but instead are instructed by the judge as to what the laws of the state are to apply to the facts in the case before them. In some states, judicial officials have created std. jury instructions on specific areas of the law, in other states, the judge, prosecutor, and defense come up with these ad hoc during the trial process.

Here is an example from Florida
https://jury.flcourts.org/criminal-jury-instructions-home/criminal-jury-instructions/
California
https://www.courts.ca.gov/partners/documents/calcrim_2019_supp.pdf
and Arizona
https://www.azbar.org/media/1978660/2019rajicriminal-5thed.pdf The burglary statutes are covered on pages 207-215.
(Arizona's appear to be well done including citations to specific cases but is published by the state Bar rather than judicial authorities which means that they are a starting place for jury instructions in a particular trial).

Here is an example of the supporting caselaw that affects interpretation of whether or not a 1st degree burglary occurred under AZ law.

"In State v. Eastlack, 180 Ariz. 243, 257, 883 P.2d 999, 1013 (1994), cert. denied,
514 U.S. 118 (1995), the court held that a weapon or dangerous instrument obtained by a
burglar during the burglary and held as “loot” does not by itself render the burglar “armed”
within the meaning of the first degree burglary statute. That holding was based on the
wording of the statute that required the state to prove that the defendant be “armed with . . .
a deadly weapon.” The statute was amended in 1988. The amendment replaced the “armed
with” requirement with “knowingly possess.” Accordingly, a weapon or dangerous
instrument obtained by a burglar during the burglary and held as “loot” can support a
conviction for first-degree burglary. State v. Tabor, 184 Ariz. 119, 907 P.2d 505 (App. 1995).
Possession of a dangerous instrument while remaining in the house where murder was
committed justified armed burglary instruction, even if defendant did not possess dangerous
instrument when entering or leaving the house. State v. Salazar, 173 Ariz. 399, 409, 844 P.2d
566, 576, cert. denied, 509 U.S. 912 (1992)."

AZ Self defense jury instructions are on pages 59-61 (the link is a pdf and the pdf page numbers do not match the page number on the printed page). A bit too long to cut and paste here but it cites relevant case law that applies to self defense so you can look up what the court said in those cases.
 
One of the problems with only knowing the black letter law of the statute is that the courts may have interpreted that statute in a way that is not obvious through cases applying the statute to specific case facts. ...

The statutes themselves are often a mish mash of laws, sometimes with apparent contradictions, that have been passed over a century or so. So courts do not normally read a statute in isolation from other statutes that apply to the general situation but try the reconcile any ambiguities and contradictions that occur over time through interpretations of the laws in specific cases

That is why this is in one of our stickies:

"...trying to interpret a particular law in isolation by using lay dictionary definitions can lead to erroneous conclusions. Case law—decisions rendered by high courts in the interpretation of the laws—and relationships among other pertinent laws and constitutional principles can have as much to do with the real meaning of the law as the words in a single statute.

"or this reason, we strongly discourage the rote cutting and pasting into posts of state legal codes to support one’s position in a discussion here...."​
 
Keep in mind that what someone wo breaks into a hose is or may be charged with with is completely irrelevant to the question of justification of any force used against him, and it really shouldn't matter to the defender at all.
I will repeat for at least the third time, I personally would not engage in the scenario I described, I am only discussing it as a point of interest.
 
I'm not an attorney, and even if I were I know enough to know that the law may often be argued both ways.

With respect to OLNS's discussion point (which I was not able to get in on last night), here's how I look at any given scenario where the use of deadly force MIGHT be considered by me:

The whole issue about whether deadly force is justified is summed up nicely in the definition of deadly force I memorized way back in my early days in the Navy, while getting a qualification check out with the Weapon's Officer on the USS Henry Clay:

"Deadly force is that amount of force which I know, or should know, will cause serious bodily harm or death, to be used as a last resort when all lesser means have failed or cannot reasonably be employed."

Along with that were the seven circumstances in which deadly force was authorized (which are not all the same for civilians).

The law pretty much says that an element of "imminent danger" must be present to use deadly force. How this is worded varies a bit from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, and most certainly some specific circumstances which may be codified in the various statutes. But in general, you don't see laws which clearly say "If you're in your home and someone breaks in, you can feel free to shoot them all you wish." It's almost always presented as a set of circumstances with elements that a reasonable person would say place your life in imminent danger.

SO...you must essentially answer the question for yourself as to whether or not you are in "imminent danger" BEFORE you use deadly force.

Being inside your house when a burglar breaks in may indeed present an element of "imminent danger", based on the circumstances. And if the jurisdiction has some form or Castle Doctrine, you don't have a duty to retreat, which means IF the circumstances place you in "imminent danger", you may defend yourself with deadly force.

Being OUTSIDE your house, however, presents a different initial circumstance. In this instance, unless the individual committing the crime actually approaches or otherwise exhibits some attempt to place yourself in "imminent danger", then the use of deadly force against this individual is ill-advised. Especially since being outside gives you more options than being "trapped" inside with limited choices in where you may turn.

And remember...ANY time a person uses deadly force against another, it WILL be scrutinized under they eyes of the law to see if there is any evidence which would indicate that the actions were contrary to the laws. And if so, charges will be preferred and it will go before a court...where a battle before a jury will be fought to see whether a "reasonable person" would view the circumstances in your favor or not.


It's my opinion that far too many people approach the question of whether or not to use deadly force in entirely the wrong way. The appropriate mindset should not be for people to actively seek justifications to use deadly force in an encounter. Rather, they should understand the rules which govern the use of deadly force and seek to use it ONLY when circumstances make it unavoidable. Never look for an "excuse" to use deadly force.

My two cents.

Probably with far too many words, but there you have it!
 
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