PART 3

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Our opponents on this issue are winning, at least in part, because they have nothing to lose. We have everything to lose. In a nutshell that is the problem. Every time they propose 2A restrictive legislation and it fails to pass they have lost nothing and we have won nothing. Every time they propose 2A restrictive legislation and it passes they have won something and we have lost something. The times where pro 2A legislation has passed rolling things back to a less restrictive stage are few in comparisons to the restrictive 2A laws. Until we find a means to change this so they are always on the defensive we are destined to eventually lose. They can afford to nickel and dime us to death on this issue. Time is on their side. Pass enough laws and the end result is the same as one huge law banning everything. It's easier to pass little laws that are less noticeable to the average joe and harder for us to roll back all those thousands of little laws. As society grows more and more wussified and nanny state dependent fewer and fewer real self reliant people will exist who are willing to fight the fight against this corruption. I honestly don't know if we can turn the tide in this battle or if we are doomed to fight a long and tiring delaying action. With the current managed media and political establishment we are operating with both hands tied behind our backs at the moment and the antis are looking for more ways to muzzle us.
 
Vote for the lesser of two evils, and survive to fight again in the next election.

+1

I also like the Gallic Wars reference. Honestly, it's beyond refreshing to hear people finally rebuke this "vote for the third party" garbage. I know from the responses on other threads, so I'll save you guys the trouble:

With that attitude, libertarians will never win. You need to support the third party.

Who will never win. If a pro-gun libertarian wants to win, they need to run as a republican.

Who will not vote for the lesser of two evils votes for the greater of those two evils.

+1 again.

I know people don't like Giuliani, but let's say he's the Republican candidate. Let's say he changes his stance on guns for the election and would continue to do so during office. You'd have a pro-gun president who was only pro-gun for his own political career, but you'd still keep your AWs. I understand what Giuliani was like for NYC. I know why people don't like him, but folks, NO political candidate will embody all the issues dear to you. If you don't wish to compromise, fine, but don't act surprised when a gun ban gets signed under a democratic president.
 
Unfortunately, your argument is based on the assumption that everyone believes that the 2ndA is the most important of all. I no longer believe that. The 1st and 4th are under serious assault and are right up there along with other issues such as border security, IMO.

For many years I have been pointing out that the Bill of Rights is a set -- break one article, and you break them all. The techniques used to set aside the 2nd Amendment work very well to set aside the 1st and 4th.

Which is why a vigorous defense of the 2nd would have strengthened the 1st and 4th.

I don't much care for cyanide or arsenic. Either way, you get dead.

Unfortunately, "not caring for" isn't a strategy.
 
If we go along with the plan of always voting for one of the 2 major parties, we will be perpetually stuck in a vote for the lesser of two evils. There are nations in the world that have viable 3rd and even 4th party candidates. However, we somehow got stuck in this cycle of generic voting since the majority of us don't have the time to properly research candidates and be politically active to mold favorable candidates. The few who do go through the laboriuos task of seething through the list should not have to settle for less just because most everyone else didn't do as much work. Some of us can't stand the lesser of two evils and I will say the election process written 200 years ago was written so you can avoid voting for the lesser of two evils by making it possible for any citizen to run for office. It is not acceptable to lose 90% of our rights and it is also not acceptable to lose 10% of our rights. Voting along party lines may be a temporary solution, but it is not a long term one.
 
If we go along with the plan of always voting for one of the 2 major parties, we will be perpetually stuck in a vote for the lesser of two evils.

If we go to work, and join the local committees and work our way up in the parties, we will be able to nominate candidates more to our liking. If we just sit on the couch and bitch, we'll never have the candidates we want.

There are nations in the world that have viable 3rd and even 4th party candidates.

Those are Parliamentary systems, and don't have the Separation of Powers that we have. In England, for example, the Parliament selects the Prime Minister -- there's no popular vote for him. So the majority party selects the Prime Minister (and his cabinet.) In such a system a tiny party can join with a larger one to form a majority -- and pick up a few crumbs in return.

In our system, it doesn't work like that.
 
I suppose most of us have gone into the voting booth and - at least figuratively - held our noses to cast our vote for whichever candidate we thought would screw us least. Well, the ballot didn't show our disgust. It only showed our vote as one resoundingly in favor of candidate "X".
That's what voting for the lesser of two evils amounts to... a vote for the flawed ideals and intentions of that candidate. Exit polls might reflect the agony you endured to cast your vote but exit polls don't count when that "lesser" candidate is sworn into office.
Others can justify their votes for McCain rather than Hillary by whatever strained logic they want. I won't vote for either one of them because neither of them would uphold the principles I hold paramount for a President. When election day rolls around there may be no one on the ballot who I feel properly represents me. If so, I will either not vote or I will write in a candidate I feel would fit my ideals. In any case, I won't be "wasting" my vote by giving it to an enemy. :cuss:
 
Guilliani is the greater evil, not the lesser!

as far as guns go, he would go much further then Clinton ever dreamed of going.

Guilliani will be able to enact far more gun bans then Hillary.

We have to get rid of him at the primary. period.

Hillary would be a great fund raiser for our side, Guilliani will be a very competent
gun grabber who will gain bi partisan support for his gun grabbing.

Him and President Clinton were very buddy buddy in the 90's/gun grabbing heyday

He enacted MORE GUN CONTROL then Bill Clinton did.

Guilliani is far, far, far more dangerous to us then Hillary.
 
I suppose most of us have gone into the voting booth and - at least figuratively - held our noses to cast our vote for whichever candidate we thought would screw us least. Well, the ballot didn't show our disgust. It only showed our vote as one resoundingly in favor of candidate "X".
That's what voting for the lesser of two evils amounts to... a vote for the flawed ideals and intentions of that candidate.

Some of us remember the election of '92, when people wouldn't vote for the lesser of two evils and voted for Ross Perot, instead.

Remember what we got out of that election?

And what "message" did we send? "The American people are dumb enough to elect the most radical leftists and anti-gunners."
 
"Remember what we got out of that election?"

Yeah, I remember that. I also remember how people did and said anything they could to absolve themselves of the blame for it. Then they began running - from principle to percieved safety; from the prospect of making a change to being on the "winning" team; From Freedom to Fascism.
We raise Cain about liberals who want to pull out of Iraq because we've lost a bit over 3000 soldiers there while all the time some of us use the same reasoning to vote for a piece of crap in a suit... 'we got burned once, let's not do it again!!' In fact, we need to go back to doing it again and again until we either get one of ours elected or those who do get the office decide to give us more than lip-service. Where the Sam Hill are our guts? Have we left them under the keyboard?
Ross Perot was still the best candidate in '92. Would he have made a good President? I don't know. Did Bubba? What we need are more candidates like Perot and more voters who want our country to return to greatness. Instead we get a mess of spineless jellyfish - both as candidates and as voters!
:cuss:
 
Yeah, I remember that. I also remember how people did and said anything they could to absolve themselves of the blame for it.

You refer, of course, to those who voted for the Third Party candidate and let the greater of two evils win.
 
Vern, you're no kid and I am - as most will attest - an old fart. We've both been around this world a bit and seen things we'd probably prefer to have missed. As a kid I remember my uncle working for the WPA in the late '30s and I still recall the unease of my adult family when news of Pearl Harbor hit the radio. There was a lot of other crap since then too, stuff that neither of us need to recall, let alone relate.
Like many here, I remember days when guns were sitting in the corner, loaded and ready for use. We kids didn't play around with them because they weren't mysterious, needing exploration. They were just - there.
Roosevelt died and Truman took over with his no-nonsense way of doing things but even he was finally defeated in an election. By that time we were at "peace" with only minor police actions in places like Korea. A succession of similar actions ensued and with each one the recriminations among legislators increased. Each war or police action had to be somebody's fault and no lawmaker wanted to assume the blame so it had to fall on someone else.
Laws were passed... some to make it easier for people to get money from the government so they could get a college education. In time though the government became jealous of anyone having any more power than it. So laws were passed (for the children, of course) to limit the freedoms we had been born with. Now we're shackled with the McCain-Feingold Campaign Finance Reform law, a direct infringement on the First Amendment to the Constitution. Prior to that was the 1934 National Firearms Act and the 1968 Gun Control Act and the Brady Bill and the Assault Weapons Ban (which, while it has died a well deserved death, is in danger of resusitation.)
While the gun-control laws were passed by Democratic administrations the CFR was passed by a Republican. Some of those Democratic administrations even had Republican-controlled congresses but the bleeding still continued.
I think the time has come to recognise that the difference between Democrat and Republican politicians is so small as to be inconsequential. They both want power that they don't deserve, don't need and shouldn't have. Both sides lie, cheat and steal to stay in office so they can acquire more power. I remember an old lady who, when asked why she voted for JFK, said she liked the way he combed his hair. Trivial? Silly? Perhaps. But in the long run she cast her vote with as much intelligence as those who listen to the candidates and believe what they hear.
I've sat, glued to the tv screen, listening and watching various candidates as they lie about their stances on world and national issues. I've cast my vote and watched the candidate of my choice suddenly find he was "unable" - through no fault of his own, of course - to follow through on his promises. I'm not going to play their game any more. You can if you want, it really won't make a difference anyway.
Bubba was bad but so was his predecessor and so is his successor. They are all lying, scheming politicians that will deny you the basic rights you were born with while assuming powers they aren't meant to have.
If you truly believe that voting for the best candidate ammounts to voting for the worst (Perot v. Clinton) then any arguement I make will not sway you. By the same token, I will continue to vote for the person I want to win. If, by whatever means, the best person isn't even on the ballot I'll write him in.
The weekend is upon us. Have a good one!
 
Politics is a good deal like poker. The odds are slim, but a player who knows them can win consistently.

If we always vote, and work in the parties to get our man nominated -- not just for president, but for justice of the peace, mayor, state legislature, Congress and the Senate, we can make a difference.

If we only sit on the couch and complain, we will certainly lose.
 
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