Partial Colt ID

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krs

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This is all that was brought me to value, if possible.

I make it to be a factory conversion of a Colt Pocket Navy or Pocket Police black powder converted to cartridge by the Colt factory.

What you see is all there is - the cylinder and the ejection rod mechanism are missing. The frame does have it's lockwork and it works fine, tight and good trigger. The hand rises and falls as it should but there's no way to tell if this revolver is in time without the cylinder. The barrel has excellent rifling and is generally bright but does have an amount of rust pitting. According to the owner this has not been cleaned externally and is in the condition he received it several years ago. The loading gate operates smoothly and the pistol strikes me as being in very good condition if it were complete.

It's a smaller framed pistol than the 1851 -1860 Navy or Army and the barrel is 5 1/2" long and round. The serial number is present on both barrel and frame and is as seen on the frame here, and there are the shown patent dates which relate to the conversion I believe since the pistol itself should have originally been manufactured in 1863 or close by.

I have an old Flayderman's, an old Schwing, and an old R.L. Wilson general guide but none of the recognized authoritative information concerning these post civil war Colt conversions.

Does anyone have more info, perhaps the missing parts ( :) ), or refute what I've said?

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I don't know much or have better references, but will ask if it has a plugged rammer hole or if it is one of the conversions with a new barrel. Maybe a frame never completed as a percussion gun.
 
Thanks Jim,

You know, I saw reference to the plugged loader ram hole in Flayderman's AFTER the parts had gone home but in thinking and remembering my time handling it I do not think it had an obvious plug and that the barrel was made from a single piece of steel. So unless these pluggings that are spoken of are not obvious either to the eye or to the hand I'd have to say that this piece had never had such a hole.

If the serial number range includes this gun it would be mid range in the factory conversions. There were supposed to be only some 2000 of the Pocket Police and Pocket Navy done this way although there were various other methods of conversion done to revolvers during the entire period of transition.
 
I am looking at Variations of Colt's New Model Police & Pocket Breech Loading Pistols, by John D. Breslin. William Q. Pirie and David E. Price.

This book is a detailed study of these particular revolvers. I can't read the serial number from the pictures, but if it is between 8,800 and 13,900 it isn't a conversion, but a new gun using Pocket Navy/Police parts and a new barrel, cylinder, and conversion ring. You may have hit the jackpot, because apparently only 550 of the variant were made. Barrel lengths were 5 1/2 and 6 1/2 inches, usually chambered in .38 C.F.

More reading will be required... :)
 
It is obvious that the barrel is new, partly because of the contour and partly because of the absence of the ball loading cutout.

FWIW, I think that gun is Flayderman's 5B-131, not 5B-128.

I have one of the short barrel guns, (5B-132) and it is clearly NOT a conversion. The serial number, 4109, is not a pocket model serial but a new series for the new gun. Parts intended for the pocket model were undoubtedly used, but there was no renumbering.

As to that gun, there are now "conversions" being made and perhaps the parts would fit the old gun. Little collector value, but at least a complete gun could be built up.

Jim
 
Yes, I recall a visit to Dixie Gun Works years ago. They had a Patterson Colt that the placard says was original only to the butt and frame, the barrel and cylinder being replacements. Still worth a pretty penny, though.
 
I'm not the owner of this one - it was brought to a friend of mine to assess and he brought it to me. It's gone home now but I was able to get these two photos done and they show that there is a hole where a BP loading lever would run. The hole is blind and the exterior of the barrel shows no good sign of a plug so could it be a new barrel that was drilled to balance the gun? The barrel is 6 1/2" - my bad memory accounts for the lost inch yesterday.

There is a "T" stamped in the surface below the loading lever hole. An inspector mark?

Jim Keenan: My edition of Flayderman's lacks an illustration of 5B-131. skips it for some reason, and this contour looks closer to 5B-128 than to 5B-132. All I could do was take a flyer and suppose that metal erosion might account for the perceived difference between the actual and my copy's image of 5B-128. The shape of 5B-132 is shorter and much sharper at the point of variation.

Old Fuff, the number IS within the range you speak of - 10,708.

It might be of real interesst to the owner to know that it could be possible to reconstruct the piece. I didn't get any anecdotal stuff about where it came from or whether the guy believes that it belonged to his grandfather or great grandaddy.

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Don't think there is or ever was a pluged hole in the barrel. What you are seeing are tool marks left by a rotating cutter. The barrel was made for a metallic cartridge arm, not a caplock. There is no groove on the right side so that a ball or bullet that was being loaded could be rotated under the bullet rammer. Such a groove wan't necessary when the revolver was loaded from the breech.

So far as I can discover (and I haven't had time to look very hard) no one makes a replacement cylinder for this particular model. However they do make cap & ball cylinders, and it might be possible to convert one to the metallic cartridge style in the same way it was originally done. If my previous observations turn out to be correct, restoring it would well be worth the effort, because it is one of the most seldom seen examples of its kind.
 
Yeah, that's another one on me, that hole is where the "centerpin" or axle of the cylinder would go.

There's been a bunch of guessing and hoping on this end and I think I let some of it cloud me up, Fuff. When I had the parts in hand they fit together, of course, and I didn't give this plug and hole business another thought. But the plugging is mentioned in a reference to one of the conversions and there's been a sort of blind seeking of a holy grail going on in which everything that can be rationalized into a 'clue' becomes convincing to a hopeful owner. One of the people involved seems to have formed a fond attachment to the possibility of the gun being a Thuel conversion. It was persistent but I think it's finally died away. Love is so fickle, so fleeting... :)


Thanks Fuff.....I don't know if there's been any thought of a restoration. I think the owner may be interested in selling it as is but I have no piece of any pie it might bring.
 
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It is certainly not a Thuer conversion. I know 5B-131 has no picture, but it describes a cartridge revolver with a barrel made from scratch, which is the case with "your" gun. 5B-128 clearly shows a converted barrel and mentions a plugged loading lever area.

Jim
 
I have been short on reading time lately, but I do have the necessary information. This variant was made using surplus model 1862 Police Model parts with a conversion ring and gate at the back of the frame, a modified cap & ball cylinder, and a new barrrel with an ejector assembly. They called it a "Police Model," and it came with a long 5 1/2 or 6 1/2 inch barrel. They were chambered in .38 C.F. Two points that help to identify it are a gate with a rounded back (simialr to a S.A.A.) and a large headed hammer screw. About 7 out of 10 were apparently nickel plated and the rest case-hardened and blued. About 550 have been identified, and it is one, if not "the one" variant that's hardest to find. The first were shipped on May 1, 1874, and sporadic shipments were made over the years until Feb. 28, 1882 When Winchester, in one large shipment, apparantly bought all that were left in stock. The pictures I have match those that have been posted exactly.

More reading to do.
 
Information in Wilson's THE BOOK OF COLT FIREARMS indicates the Colt Pocket Navy, along with the Colt 1862 Police, cartridge revolvers in a separate serial number range from #1 through #19000 were newly assembled during the years 1873-1875. Your pistol was assembled in the final year. The pistols were chambered for either .38 centerfire or rimfire cartridge. The barrels used were altered percussion barrels that were in inventory and would explain the plugged loading lever hole. Colt's policy to use up parts on hand on newer model firearms is well documented. Pictured on page 228 is a 6-1/2" barreled .38 rimfire Pocket Navy serial #10881, less than 200 numbers from your Colt.
 
You're both right and wrong... ;)

Wilson didn't dig deep enough. It turns out that Colt did indeed make the revolver you described, but they also made another variant - and the revolver that is the subject of this thread is one of those other variants.

The revolver in question was made on a new (rather then cap & ball) frame and had a new barrel made during or after 1877. How does one know? Because later research showed that in or about 1877 Colt changed the way they rifled barrels. Those barrels that were made for cap & ball revolvers had the older style rifling. Later new barrels had the new style rifling. The posted pictures show that the barrel on this revolver has new style rifling.

We are lucky that a book has been written that is entirely focused on small-frame conversions, and goes into them with extensive detail. I am using that book.
 
Excellent info, Old Fuff,; it sounds like you've got it pinned down.

A question: In post #4 above you said that "apparently only 550 of the variant were made", while in post #11 your wording is: "About 550 have been identified". I'm sure that you see how the meaning of the phrasings differ, or could differ, so may I ask if the text states that just 550 of these are known to have been made or is that figure the number of individual pistols which are known to remain in existence - that are held today?

Any info as to where the revolvers were shipped or to whom?

That's an interesting bit about Winchester! I wonder what ol' Olly was up to?

Do you have the capability to scan anything relevant to a file that could be sent to me? I know that this is a lot to ask so please don't hesitate to decide not to try it - I hate messing around with stuff like this, and most of the time my efforts end in results that are, umm, less than perfect.

I don't know the owner of this pistol but I do know that he is expressing interest in selling these parts for as much as he can get for them. He brought it to my FFL guy to see about having him sell it on consignment for him and the two of us are trying to figure the best thing to tell the owner so he can decide what to do.

Apparently the owner has had this for a number of years and from what I've seen of his emails he's spent a fair amount of time over the years trying to find out what it is and how much it's worth. He's amazed at how much my buddy has found in such a short time but doesn't know that all of the credit should go to the members of this forum, most especially to you, Fuff, so I'll thank you all for him.
 
Well I keep discovering more things of interest. Before this I thought I knew a lot. Now I know that I know next to nothing. :confused:

There has only been one serious study made of Colt’s small-frame cartridge conversions - and I just happen to have it.

This particular revolver was part of "the rarest" of all variants (which they call "Type 7") and they admit that there is a lot about it that they still don't know. They traced 550 guns in Colt's old records, but that may or may not represent the total. Also it is possible that some of those 550 guns were of the kind mentioned in the previous post that I corrected. It is so scarce that after going through the collections of serious Colt collectors they were only able to find 51 revolvers for their survey, and 46 of them were tracked back to the Winchester order/shipment of February 28, 1882. (And yes, just what was Winchester’s interest? No specific letters or other documents have been found in the remaining records of either company.)

I will try to scan you some pages, but the problem is that useful information is scattered throughout the whole book.

Value? That’s sort of interesting. From a historical perspective it is extremely interesting, and I was going to ask that you contact the owner and see if he would object if I contacted the book’s authors and added another gun to their survey. But anyway the material value isn’t particularly high because collectors have been far more interested in the larger Army (.44) and Navy (.36) revolvers and very few paid any attention to the pocket models. Even R.L. Wilson, James Serven and Robert Sutherland never caught on, so they remained an undiscovered gold mine. But then a serious collector would want the original cylinder so it’s a shame that it’s apparently lost. That said, examples of Type 7 revolvers are so rare I would restore it if I had a choice. The larger problem may be the ejector assembly, not the cylinder.
 
Interesting stuff, Fuff!

I think that I can safely say that there would be no objection to inclusion of what's known of this pistol into the author's survey. It could not hurt the owner so long as he remains anonymous like this, and his emails do express an enjoyment of historical explorations from what I've seen of them. So since there cannot be any risk to him, why not?

As I said, scanning is an unpleasantry I know, and with info scattered in bits throughout a large volume it's much worse. Please don't give that request of mine another thought.

All of this has come from : "Variations of Colt's New Model Police & Pocket Breech Loading Pistols", by John D. Breslin. William Q. Pirie and David E. Price. that you cited above?

There's the book, in case anyone is interested in a copy: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_g...illiam+Q.+Pirie+and+David+E.+Price.&x=17&y=17

I think you're right about the ejector assembly, Fluff, that would be a VERY specialized and rare part(s) by itself.


(Hey, did you ever notice that Supica & Nahas's 3rd Edition was printed in China?...........hmmmph. :) I guess you do whatcha' gotta' do, eh?)
 
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I sure agree with Old Fuff. Just when you think you know a little bit, something comes along to show just how little you do know.

Thanks to all for the education.

Jim
 
All of this has come from : "Variations of Colt's New Model Police & Pocket Breech Loading Pistols", by John D. Breslin. William Q. Pirie and David E. Price. that you cited above?

Yes, this is the book in question, and I suspect the number of copies that are available is about the same as the general lack of interest in the subject. However I have found it to be very interesting.

At the time, Colt was simply trying to find a way to use up obsolete parts left over from the Civil War period. The records were not particularly well kept, and the mix-and-match nature of the situation resulted in 7 variants, all based on the 1849 Pocket Model, 1862 Pocket Navy, and 1862 Police cap & ball revolvers.

So there is still a lot to be discovered.
 
That's a pretty limited scope when it's considered that the pocket and police models must have been a small segment of Colt's activity during the changeover to cartridge weapons. After all the 1873 SAA was a service sidearm and there were indians to fight.

Also I had imagined that there would have been a great big nationwide clamoring by people with new or good condition frontloaders to have the factory convert their sidearms to rear loading cartridge arms. Does this book go into that sort of historical account, or does it stay closer, serving as a compilation of the production data with little attention to the market forces that must have driven those data?

What's in the bibliography, Old Fuff? Are Breslin, Pirie, and Price breaking the Colt production activity into managable segments each with it's own volume? When their names are listed as I just did it sounds like a law firm and if that's what they are we have to know that they'll squeeze every possible nickel from the topic.
 
Actually it appears that Colt didn't do a whole lot of converting older guns, but I don't think that "conversions of customers' older guns" would necessarily show up in the shipping records that are still available. The firm of Breslin, Pirie, and Price :neener: seem to consentrate on the revolvers Colt built using surplus parts. Apparently revolvers made from finished 1862 Police/1862 Pocket Navy revolvers that were serial numbered in a cap & ball series were left with those numbers, while those that were made from parts that hadn't yet been numbered had new numbers in a seperate series. For example they made 950 Type 7 guns from previously completed (and numbered) cap & ball revolvers numbered in the 39,000 to 47,000 range, but only 550 new guns numbered in a range running from 8,800 to 13,900 (including the gun you had). When you consider the different series of numbers and 7 variants, all mixed up, you can see why researchers didn't always have an easy time. I would say that any Type 7 Police Model with a serial number under 39,000 but above 13,900 was probably a cap & ball revolver that was converted for a customer. Now I have to go through some reference books and see if I find any.

The strange thing here is that of the 51 discovered Type 7 revolvers, 46 were part of the very last shipment of this style of revolver, which went to Winchester (of all people) in Feb. 1882. After that Colt seems to have washed their hands and quit the business. I have to wonder if they ran out of key parts.

In 1875 R. Kittredge & Co. were selling the Colt .38 Police Model (using a re-worked cap & ball barrel) for $14.00 where a Single Action Army would run you 17.00. I should have picked some of these up when I had the chance. :neener:
 
"In 1875 R. Kittredge & Co. were selling the Colt .38 Police Model (using a re-worked cap & ball barrel) for $14.00 where a Single Action Army would run you 17.00. I should have picked some of these up when I had the chance."

You mean that Kittredge was selling them at a lower price than you were able to get them using your Colt employee discount? Boy, that Sam Colt was a tough sonofagun to work for wasn't he? :)

Maybe Winchester had plans to do a promotional, a package deal of a rifle and revolver.

That would be about the time of the beginning of Colt double action guns. Did Colt move their smaller caliber SA operations out in order to make room for the production of the DA guns in those same calibers?
 
You mean that Kittredge was selling them at a lower price than you were able to get them using your Colt employee discount? Boy, that Sam Colt was a tough sonofagun to work for wasn't he?

What employee discount? You don't know how tough they were... :D

Maybe Winchester had plans to do a promotional, a package deal of a rifle and revolver.

I have no idea, but they didn't make any rifles that used the same cartridges these revolvers were chambered for.

That would be about the time of the beginning of Colt double action guns. Did Colt move their smaller caliber SA operations out in order to make room for the production of the DA guns in those same calibers?

Colt introduced they're first "self-cocker" in 1877, chambered in .38 and .41 Long Colt. In 1878 they followed with a larger model, mostly chambered in .44-40 and .45 Colt.

My theory is that by 1882 they were running out of certain parts necessary to make completed revolvers. The ones they were making were obsolete by standards of the day, but could be sold for attractive prices because the parts were already made. The good news was that only a modest investment was necessary to make the revolvers over the cost of a new one so long as the surplus parts were available. But at some point (1882?) the time came where to keep going they would have to make at least some new parts, and it wasn't worth it. I was surprised to learn that the revolver you had was made with a newly manufactured frame, as well as a barrel. That must have kicked the cost up well over that when all-surplus parts were used. This might be a clue as to why so few of them are around.

If then had been today, Colt would have dumped those parts and completed cap & ball revolvers and taken a tax write-off, but this option wasn't available at the time. So they did what they did so long as they could make money at it. When they couldn't they stopped.

This whole thing is interesting because its been so little explored.
 
I have no idea, but they didn't make any rifles that used the same cartridges these revolvers were chambered for.

No, the world was yet to organize Cowboy Action into a ORGANIZED shooting sport.

You know, Winchester was very interested for a time in producing revolvers. They actually submitted six of them to U.S. Ordnance trials and some models for the Russian trials of the period.

Thing is that the Winchester 'Mason' revolver of 1882 had a similarity to Colt's revolver conversions but had an ejector system designed by William Mason, apparently during a time that he was employed by Colt. (!)

So what happened? Mason designs the ejector that works, finally there's one that works, and Colt has it.. Winchester buys up a batch of them, steals the designer of the thing away with who knows what inducement, (Mason owns the patent for the ejection device if not the whole pistol) has Mason simplify the pistol so it can be made more cheaply, and then sends a batch of it's Mason designed pistol to compete for the large U.S. Ordnance trials?

Ol' Sam Colt must have been beside himself!

And then Colt introduced their Burgess lever action rifle in July, 1883 which bore a strong resemblance to the Win 1873, and that introduction was apparently the stimulus for a meeting between Colt and Winchester in 1884 where they decided for their mutual benefit to stay within their respective product lines. Winchester would make no more revolvers; Colt would make no more lever action rifles.

It sounds like there was quite a little manufacturer's war going on, doesn't it?

(We all know that that sneaky ol Sam brought out his line of SLIDE action rifles the following year, 1885)


These little bits are from Madis' "The Winchester Book", and although the descriptions of the ins and outs of corporate manuevering at the time are not the subject of the book, taking the dates from the Colt info to view in a Winchester light does turn up some interesting coincidences. Nevertheless, most all of this post is imaginary and without basis other than the coincidences in the timeline and should not be taken to be a presentation of fact, OK?
 
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Here is the story of the Winchester revolver and the myth.

The enduring myth began, so far as I can determine, with an article in the Gun Report in November, 1959. It is the tale that when Colt began to produce the Colt-Burgess lever action rifle in 1883, the president of Winchester called in the great firearms designer Hugo Borchardt, then a Winchester employee, and ordered him to begin development of a revolver superior to Colt's main product, the famous Colt single action. Once the new revolver was made, Winchester officials showed it to Colt and indicated that if Colt continued to make lever action rifles, Winchester would make revolvers. A deal was struck; Colt discontinued the Burgess model and never again made a lever action rifle, and Winchester never produced their revolver. It is a great story. Alas, it is at best only partly true; as usual, the real story is more complex.

In June 1872 William W. Wetmore and Charles S. Wells, former employees of Smith & Wesson, were hired by Winchester specifically to develop a revolver for them. Their first revolver, a solid frame single action, was ready in the fall of 1872, roughly contemporaneous with Colt's own development of the Single Action Army, and eleven years before Colt's introduction of the Colt-Burgess rifle. The impetus seems to have been the 1871 S&W contract with Russia, with the possibility of another large Russian contract, as well as prospective revolver sales to Turkey and Japan. The Russians may have been shown or even tested the Winchester revolver, but if so they continued to purchase from S&W.

Winchester apparently got a bit further with the Ottoman Empire. At least one of what has come to be known as the Winchester-Wetmore-Wells revolver, chambered for the .44 Henry rimfire cartridge then in use in Turkey, was sent to that country in 1877. There are reports of a number of test guns being made for Turkey, but this has not been confirmed. Regardless, Winchester's overture to Turkey so alarmed Colt's London agent that he passed his concerns on to Hartford. For whatever reason, there seems to have been no follow-up and Turkey purchased some 6400 revolvers from S&W. But Colt was in shock, apparently considering Winchester a more serious competitor than S&W, especially since the latter, by accepting huge foreign contracts, had effectively taken itself out of the domestic market.

A later version of the Wetmore-Wells revolver had an automatic ejector, patented by Wells [No. 133732, Dec. 10, 1872], by which the fired cartridge was ejected automatically when it reached the loading port. It was ingenious, but in practice never performed satisfactorily. The patent also included loading the cylinder from a kind of "clip", which apparently was not developed. Whether Hugo Borchardt was in the employ of Winchester at that point is not clear, but there is no evidence he had anything to do with any revolver development.

In 1876, the United States, full of vim and vinegar, opened its Centennial Exposition at Philadelphia, on July Fourth, patriotic spirits dampened only slightly by the loss in late June of an Army lieutenant colonel, a former brevet major general, named George Armstrong Custer.

Needless to say, Colt had a magnificent display. But Winchester also displayed drawings and samples of the Wetmore-Wells revolver. At about this time, another inventor enters the picture. Not Hugo Borchardt, who was now at Sharps, but Stephen W. Wood. Sometime in July 1876, the Wetmore-Wells-Wood trio began development of Woods' idea for a revolver with a cylinder that could be swung out of the frame for ejection and loading. This revolver was known as the Model 1876, and far from being secret, or made just to frighten Colt, it was tested by the U.S. Navy in December 1876. It is very unlikely that Colt was unaware of such a competitive product. An improved version was known to Winchester as the Model 1877.

Hugo Borchardt had left Winchester in 1874, worked independently for a time, then went to work for Sharps on June 1, 1876. If he was the inventor of the swing-out cylinder revolver, there is no evidence of it; the drawings and patents do not mention him. The only Borchardt patent for 1876 is in September, for what later became the Sharps-Borchardt rifle, understandable as Borchardt was by that time working for Sharps.

Now enters the fourth man in the Winchester revolver saga, William Mason, one of the Nineteenth Century's greatest firearms designers. He had worked at Colt and joined Winchester in 1882. We shall hear more of Mr. Mason later.

So did anyone at Winchester in 1883 "call in" Hugo Borchardt to invent a revolver to scare off Colt? It would have had to have been a loud call, for Borchardt left the country after the Sharps Company folded in 1881, and by 1883 was in Budapest, in what was then the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

So the whole story of the Colt-Winchester "deal" is myth? No, the story seems to be partly true, but it did not involve Hugo Borchardt, or a swing-out cylinder revolver, and it didn't begin quite the way the myth has it. Colt, stung by Winchester's apparent intention to get into the lucrative foreign revolver business, began in 1882 to develop a lever action rifle based on the Burgess patents. So Winchester was not responding to Colt competition by developing a revolver, Colt was responding to Winchester competition by developing a lever action rifle. But it was a tit-for-tat game, and Winchester developed plans to ruin Colt markets in both shotguns and revolvers, not by manufacturing, but by importing. Winchester brought in both double barrel shotguns, which it had marked with the Winchester name, and Webley "British Bulldog" revolvers, which it sold through its New York City Sales Depot.

The story that Winchester officials showed Colt their new revolver is reported in several sources and appears to be true, as is the story that Bennett did call in Mason (not Borchardt) and have him start development of a single action revolver. This was to be a totally new and different model from the Wetmore-Wells and Wetmore-Wood revolvers of the 1870's. Mason also developed a slide action rifle to compete with Colt's Lightning rifle, and patented it [No. 278,987, June 5, 1883]. Apparently only one sample of the Winchester-Mason revolver was made, unlike the Winchester-Wetmore-Wood revolvers that reached a semi-production stage.

Some writers believe that Winchester President William W. Converse and Vice-president T.G. Bennett were engaged in subterfuge, and never planned to actually produce the Mason revolver, no matter what Colt did. We will likely never know what revolver(s) Winchester showed Colt at their meeting, but with the Mason design Winchester did not seem to put its best foot forward. Perhaps Winchester also showed its swingout cylinder Wood design, or the experimental double action versions Mason and Wood had been working on. But the Mason gun appears to have been the one made specifically to show to Colt.

If the Mason design represented Winchester's best effort in 1883, it was a step backward, not an advance. The Mason revolver was both externally and internally a copy of the Colt single action; while it would have been competition for the Colt single action, Colt itself had more advanced revolvers on the market and in the planning stages by that time. The new Winchester gun was far less innovative and modern than the Wetmore-Wood revolvers of the previous decade. Had Winchester decided to combine the side swing cylinder of the Wetmore-Wood with a double action system, they might well have put a serious dent in Colt's revolver supremacy, or even put the "pony" out to pasture.

Jim
 
The story(ies) that give account of the corporate manuevering of those times is a fascinating and sometimes surprising saga, Jim, but my only reason for broaching the subject here was an attempt to guess at the reason for the Winchester purchase of the last known production of the model at hand, that which is the topic of the thread.
 
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