PBS Newshour Looks at the M-16 and its Problems

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Bear2000

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PBS: Weapons of US soldiers in Iraq 'plagued with problems'
David Edwards and Greg Wasserstrom

The M-16, the choice rifle of the United States Armed Forces, turns 50 years old this month and is still plagued by many of the same problems it had half a century ago, putting American troops in Iraq at a severe disadvantage when it comes to small arms combat, the PBS program Newshour reported tonight.

"That AK-74 outhits the M-16 by two to one on full automatic," said Jim Sullivan, referring to the Russian-made assault rifle, now in its third generation. "And the reason there were 100 million AK's made wasn't to equip the Russian army - it was to give [to] our Third World opponents. The United States can't win ground wars anymore."

The M-16 and its successor, the shorter M4, are known for their finickiness, jamming in even the most innocuous conditions. In combat, the unreliability of the rifle can be deadly.

Regarding his son currently serving in Iraq, Sullivan said, "He should have an AK."

The following video is from PBS's Newshour, broadcast on September 24.

http://rawstory.com//news/2007/PBS_Guns_of_US_Soldiers_in_0924.html

(oh, and, please, no grief about the blog this came off of - I'm just posting it because it's germane to this community's interests)
 
Oh, this ought to be good.

Remember, if the M16 is in the hands of a soldier, it is a jammomatic pile of steaming excrement that is likely not to function, but if its semi-auto clone is in the hands of a civilian it is a destruction-dealing death ray sprayer that can kill an entire parking lot full of toddlers and soccer moms before Diane Fienstein can say "shoot from the hip."

Sorry. I just wanted to get my predictions on the talking points out there before anyone else steals them.

Mike ;)
 
I havent watched the video so far, but from what I've just read in your post I would say is over-exaggerated information.
On top of that, there are many many countries that use the stoner system, it is pretty damn decent. IMO the AK and the M16 both have their disadvantages and advantages, which has been discussed about a gazillion times in the rifle forum.

But, I'll watch the video anyway :D
 
Remember, if the M16 is in the hands of a soldier, it is a jammomatic pile of steaming excrement that is likely not to function, but if its semi-auto clone is in the hands of a civilian it is a destruction-dealing death ray sprayer that can kill an entire parking lot full of toddlers and soccer moms before Diane Fienstein can say "shoot from the hip."


LMAO so Fing true... so true...
 
I hear the 5.56 round is useless too! Gotta shoot 'em at least twelve times before the enemy goes down. Might as well be shooting spitballs.

Clearly every soldier ought to be equipped with a full-auto .50BMG carbine.
 
Just watched the video, and I can say that there is A CRAPLOAD of mis-information about this weapon.

At one point the guy who helped design the weapon jim sulivan claimed all this stuff about the weapon not being reliable, how he disproves of it, and approves of many other designs. However he then says that he made a 100 round (looks just like a beta c mag) magazine and was whining about how the army would not use it. Why in the hell would you make accessories for a so-called 'flawed design', on top of that 100 round magazines are known to have reliability issues in a combat environment. Your going to make the supposed 'un-reliable' weapon even more un-reliable.

They then have an interview with a guy who was a troop saying that he hated the weapon, would prefer an AK, uses an AK at home and says that his M16 always jammed.
I don't know about you guys, but as long as you keep it lubed, this gun doesn't jam very often at all. It sounds to me like he just doesn't know his weapons cause he's an idiot. If I had to use a gun, any gun in the military and had to count on it to save my life and the lives of others, the last thing I would ever do is not know how it works and how to properly maintain it.

For all the whining that sulivan does about this weapon, he should be ashamed that he helped design it.

retarded.
 
Well I have heard from Vets of Somalia that they did have to shoot those guys about 3+ times in order to drop them, that's mostly why Randy Shugart had the M1A.
Click to expand...

From what I've read, the problem in Somalia (and the current wars as well) is that the 62gr "penetrator" round doesn't fragment quick enough on thin targets out of a 20" barrel, and doesn't fragment hardly at all out of a 14.5" barrel. Thats why there's a big push towards the new mk262 77gr (which is a SMK with a cannelure) round. It fragments nicely out of short barrels, and a few people I've talked to who have been in the sandbox speak highly of it.

An excellent writeup of 62gr performance issues is here.

http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm#fbispec
 
I thought the comment Sullivan made about these automatic rifles being designed to fire from the hip was very telling as to why he prefers the AK. If you take accuracy out of the picture, I think most people would agree that the AK goes to the top.

I've never owned an AR, but my limited experience with them confirms the reputation they have for being finicky and even fragile.
 
While in Iraq we did have problems with the 62gn 5.56 going through insurgents. But I did not have any weapon malfuntions with my M-4. The main reason was keeping it clean and knowing how to preform proper PM. I've seen Fobbits who had enough dust and dirt on thier rifles to raise corn.
 
the L85a2 feeds 5.56 and nobody complains that what it hits does'nt go down.
though it has a longer barrel than the m4.
I know red way green make two versions of 5.56 one for SA80 and one for m16
types.
the m16 variant is more powerful because you need more power to get the m16
to cycle as the sa80 gas system is much more efficient.
the ak is a fine tool for barley trained conscripts who are going to attack en masse thats what it was designed for and people who can't be arrsed to maintain there weapons.
so that will be the us military then :)
 
Well...Playin' a little of the advocate to the evil one...

Under harsh conditions, and sorely neglected, the AK is the more reliable weapon...and I'm no admirer of the Kalashnikov rifle...but there it is. If the M16 isn't kept pretty clean, it's subject to hang ya out to dry.

Of course, even the AK will jam, given enough loose, gritty debris in the action. The notion that the AK can't or won't jam is absurd. It's a machine.
If it becomes sufficiently fouled, it'll stop, too. It just tolerates those conditions a bit better than the '16.

So...Clean those rifles, lads...and keep the dust covers snapped shut whenever you can.

Coronach...I can't wait to see how long it takes for your points to go public...and how quickly the media and the anti faction will scramble to refute it.
 
When I was in the Marines, they gave us all these little books that said Operator's Manual for Rifle, 5.56mm, M-16, etc etc. Lots of crazy stuff in there like how to lube your weapon properly in dusty and/or hot environments. :rolleyes:
 
I hear the 5.56 round is useless too! Gotta shoot 'em at least twelve times before the enemy goes down. Might as well be shooting spitballs.
Click to expand...

Except in those civilian owned semi-automatics where they can pass through a telephone pole, engine block, concrete wall, bullet proof vest, 3 law enforcement officers and still have enough energy to kill 5 children.
 
Coronach, you owe me a new keyboard. :D

But, yea, what the heck did I just watch? Not only did he say assault rifles are designed to be fired from the hip, he said that's where they got the name. Err, last I checked, they got the name from a mistranslation of Sturmgewehr. Which were called storm rifles to go with the storm troopers. Right?

And, umm, most M4s don't even do full auto anymore. :scrutiny:
 
Who told anyone from PBS which end the bullets come out?

Having PBS investigate guns is like having my 12 year old investigate brothels in Nevada, he's not gonna have enough experience to know much.
 
Having PBS investigate guns...
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly. PBS should stick to prodcasting concerts of obscure musicians and begging for more money.

If you don't let your AR watch the video, it will continue to function just fine.
 
Is there a difference in the enemies we faced in Viet-Nam, and the enemies
we face in Iraq and Afaganistan? After the initial problems with the M-16's
of the Viet-Nam era were addressed, it served pretty darn well in the hands
of American fighting forces for the rest of the war. Also, I think those initial
problems should be blamed on then Secretary Of Defense- Robert McNamara,
who rush the manufactuer of these weapons to replace the aging and very
heavy M-14's. Personally, I think the M-14 served well; and except of the
weight of the weapon would be my choice today~! ;):D
 
The special operator in Somalia had an M25 because he was the sniper part of a two man designated marksman team providing air support to troops on the ground.
Both men lost their lives because they were under equipped with ammunition and had no immediate resupply.
They died because they ran out of bullets, not because either of their weapons or their skills were lacking.

Soldiers complain about every piece of gear they are issued.
No matter how good it is they want something better and if anything can be broken a trooper is guaranteed to break it.

Soldiers that have M16A2 rifles think they should have M4 carbines because they are "handier".
Nobody is bitching that the M4 might be less effective, they are bitching the M16 is "Too big" and a "telephone pole".

The soldiers that have M4 carbines issued enmasse wish they had more troops with M14 rifles so they could kill bad guys at longer ranges.
They aren't saying the m4 won't kill them deader than dead at normal ranges and they aren't complaining that the rifle doesn't work.
Nobody wants to lug an M240 machinegun around and nothing beats a SAW for room cleaning.
Too bad it isn't near as handy as that desireable and ineffective M4.

The guys with the M14s wish somebody would make more movement toward the 6.8mm cartridge on the 18" barrelled Mk1Mod0 platform so they wouldn't have to lug the heavy beast around and they could carry more ammo.

As Linda Ellerby likes to say, "And so it goes,,,,,"
 
As I noted in another post, in the Army's initial report on weapons performance in Iraq, most of the complaints about the 5.56x45mm's lack of effectiveness came from troops who had never engaged in close combat. Further, complaints about the reliability of the M16 seem to be originating from primarily non-combat troops.

All of the troops I've spoken to who have occasion to shoot BGs (11 bravo types) tell me the M16 runs just fine, and that 5.56x45 does the job.
 
"The special operator in Somalia had an M25 because he was the sniper part of a two man designated marksman team providing air support to troops on the ground.
Both men lost their lives because they were under equipped with ammunition and had no immediate resupply.
They died because they ran out of bullets, not because either of their weapons or their skills were lacking."


Actually they went to rescue a crashed helicopter (the second blackhawk crash), Shugart (with the M25) and Gary Gordon (with a heavily modified M-16), held the zone by themselves for well over an hour (we don't know they actual time as that is somewhat classified) before being overrun, as details are sketchy (the only survivor was Michael Durrant) we don't know all the details but it is believed they were also using captured weapons as well, now that that is cleared up what I was saying is 5.56 is lethal but for people high on drugs,allah,ect you need some power.
 
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