PD Ammo in .380

[Water-Man]

Cabelas had them for $15.99 a box but I haven't checked recently.

 

[Nushif]

Any brandname hollow-point is what I'd carry.

 

[Manco]

Are you referring to the WWB target rounds?

I would guess so--I've only seen them referenced in a ballistics test, as I don't own a .380 ACP pistol myself.

Manco, Bersa says that the end user should use only ammo loaded to the SAAMI standard rating. So do most other manufacturers.

That would be my recommendation, as well. Fortunately Buffalo Bore makes a line of hot yet standard-pressure .380 ACP ammunition:

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=57

I don't usually recommend extra-hot loads or +P loads, but in a caliber that some would consider marginal, I thought that some people would be interested. The only +P loads that I ever actually recommend for defense against humans are in .38 Special because modern revolvers and .357 Magnums can easily handle them, and .22 LR because it can make a big difference in effectiveness in some guns. With .380 ACP (and most every other caliber), I'd stick with standard pressure only, myself.

So any use of Buffalo Bore ammo should be kept to the minimum necesary to ensure function and proper handling.

That would be prudent, as well as more affordable.

So you can shoot through multiple bad guys?

That is not my intention. Although I use and make reference to ballistics gelatin tests all the time, I never take the test results completely at face value. They give you an idea of the relative penetration capabilities of different loads in soft media that supposedly simulates living flesh, but real human beings are more elastic and not so homogeneous. For example, penetrating an arm before penetrating the torso--which is a big deal because arms are often in the way of the COM--involves penetrating multiple layers of skin, which tends to reduce actual penetration by several inches. This is because skin is more difficult to penetrate than muscle or calibrated gelatin. And bone and sinew, of course, can reduce penetration rather significantly.

If we add the large size of certain individuals to the equation, as well as bullets sometimes striking at odd angles in real shootings, then 10" of penetration seems rather marginal at best to me. Sure, it's enough to kill, but then again so is a .22 Short, and I wouldn't recommend either. Penetration is second in importance only to shot placement, and actually enables shot placement, so I would prefer to have a greater margin in that aspect of terminal ballistics over a wider bullet. It doesn't have to be as much as 20"--I only used that figure because that's what .380 ACP FMJ gives you, and I'll take it over 10" and an expanding bullet. Some loads, namely Federal Hydra-Shok, get about 12" with less expansion, and are also worthy of consideration, but I still like 20" better, personally.

Take a look at the new Winchester PDX1 95gr. JHP

Does anybody have terminal ballistics test results for this load? I'm not fond of the Winchester Ranger-T .380 ACP load because of its poor penetration (less than 8" ), but the bonded versions (i.e. PDX1) sometimes perform very differently, so the jury is still out, in my opinion. My .40 S&W defensive load happens to be PDX1, but I don't consider myself biased in any way because effectiveness relative to caliber for all product lines depends on the individual load and sometimes on the gun they're used in.

 

[Water-Man]

I read a favorable artical in Tactical Response Magazine-March 2010.

 

[Ben86]

I've read so so many favorable articles in magazines I have stopped trusting them.

 

[WRGADog]

My recommendation

Hornaday Critical Defense, Corbon, Federal Hydra Shok.

 

[Zerodefect]

Corbon Powerball.

 

[jon_in_wv]

I prefer the Federal Hydrashoks or the Gold Dots in 380. Both have decent velocity numbers and both with penetrate 10-12 inches in gelatin IF they expand. If they don't they will behave like ball and penetrate deeper. I don't like the WWB some people are suggesting as they are loaded pretty tame and the 380 isn't a powerhouse to start with. If you insist on FMJ pick a brand with more power than the WWB.

 

[Byron]

Jon, are you aware of any velocity testing on the WW FP ammo? I shoot them and can not discern any difference from other ammo. Byron

 

[Ben86]

I don't have a crony, but from what I have read WWB seems to have about the same velocity as UMC ammo, which has pretty standard .380 velocity. I prefer the UMC because it has a round ogive and therefore I trust it to feed more reliably. I don't by into the whole "flat point makes a better wound" theory. From what I can tell they both punch neat 9mm holes through things.

 

[ET]

Take a look at the new Winchester PDX1 95gr. JHP

Hornaday Critical Defense, Corbon, Federal Hydra Shok.

I bought some of the pdx1 at Wally World & shot off a box of them. I experienced no problems in my TCP with them. I am using Federal Hydra-Shok LE Tactical right now with great success also. The Hornady Critical Defense & Personal Defense are quite good in it as well. There are a lot of choices out there now if you can find the stock in your area or on the internet.

 

[Manco]

I don't like the WWB some people are suggesting as they are loaded pretty tame and the 380 isn't a powerhouse to start with. If you insist on FMJ pick a brand with more power than the WWB.

Be that as it may, even relatively low-velocity .380 ACP FMJ is going to penetrate plenty deep. If you demand even more, then I'm OK with that--just saying.

 

[jon_in_wv]

Sure it may penetrate fine but the lower the velocity, especially in a relatively low powered round like the 380, is going to give you a pretty iffy margin of effectiveness if you hit bone, a wallet, something in his pocket, an arm before striking the body, etc...etc.....If you are going to carry FMJs, which I don't, why not pick one with more velocity? Is velocity somehow bad? What is the drawbacks to picking something going a little faster? It sure can't be recoil, 380s just don't recoil that bad even with the fastest ammo.

For those asking for velocity numbers for WWB vs. other fmjs, google is your friend. If your not interested enough to do your own leg work, I don't feel its my job to do it. Not to be rude, but come on.

Different sites seem to post different results but generally the WWB is 50-100fps slower than some of the other SD rounds.

 

[Manco]

Sure it may penetrate fine but the lower the velocity, especially in a relatively low powered round like the 380, is going to give you a pretty iffy margin of effectiveness if you hit bone, a wallet, something in his pocket, an arm before striking the body, etc...etc.....

If it can penetrate 21.8" as it did in one test (on average), then it's probably enough unless you're defending against bears. I guess a little more couldn't hurt, which is why I also gave the Buffalo Bore ammo as an example (both were targeted at those who prefer flat-nosed rounds).

If you are going to carry FMJs, which I don't, why not pick one with more velocity? Is velocity somehow bad? What is the drawbacks to picking something going a little faster? It sure can't be recoil, 380s just don't recoil that bad even with the fastest ammo.

With .380 ACP, additional velocity should not be a problem, that's true. However, in general one has to be cautious about these things because terminal ballistics are sometimes counterintuitive. For example, low-velocity, reduced-recoil (~1200 fps) shotgun slugs generally penetrate more deeply in gelatin (and presumably flesh) than standard-velocity (~1600 fps) slugs--sometimes by more than 60%. Similar effects can be found with pistol calibers as well, and it is not always obvious how things will unfold by the numbers alone.

For those asking for velocity numbers for WWB vs. other fmjs, google is your friend.

Although the topic is .380 ACP, it should be noted that how hot loads are in different calibers doesn't vary by the brand alone. For example, I like Speer Lawman for .40 S&W because the loads are relatively hot for practice ammo, but their loads in some other common calibers are surprisingly weak in comparison to those of other brands. The same is true of all of the manufacturers that I've looked at, including European manufacturers that famously make such hot 9mm loads but also some wimpy .40 S&W loads, for example.

 

[jon_in_wv]

What does "as it did in ONE test (on average) mean? Is that an average of ONE test? Several shots in one test? What length barrel was that and in what media?

Regardless, even if it penetrates that deeply in gelatin it retains very little energy and I guarantee that any barrier would decrease that dramatically. A 90gr JHP may penetrate deeper in bare gelatin than a 90 gr JHP 100-150fps faster but I would wager the latter would do much better after barriers than the slower round. The extra speed and energy do help the little round. You may not think so but hey, everyone has their opinion.

 

[searcher451]

What works beautifully in your pistol might not work in my pistol -- same brand -- at all. Conversely, what works just fine in my pistol might not work worth a hoot in yours. The only way to determine what ammo to carry is to get a variety of brands, head to a range, and give them all a decent trial. Then determine which works the best in your individual pistol. If they all work, good for you -- head to any dozen or more links on this forum that deal with ratings on one brand of ammo vs. another and make your pick.

 

[Fastcast]

There's no one answer for all scenarios and anyone claiming so is full of themselves.

Both JHP and FMJ have their merits. In a perfect scenario with an unobstructed frontal shot JHP can't be beat but when utopia doesn't exist FMJ is hard to beat.

From all my readings, flat nosed FMJ has proven medically to do more ripping and tearing and less slipping and sliding around things that you want to damage so I'm calling BS on the "flat nose doesn't perform any better".

Personally, I carry JHP Golden Sabers in the Beretta 84 because of the 4" barrel and I carry RWS - FMJ (980fps) in the LCP with the baby barrel.

That's my game plan and I'm sticking to it.

 

[jon_in_wv]

Sounds like a good one to me Fastcast. The Federal Hydrashoks are my choice in 380. They are loaded to a pretty good velocity and seem to penetrate pretty well for a 380. When they do expand they don't expand much and they seem to get plugged easily and act more like TMJs. So hopefully in an unobstructed frontal shot I might get some benefit from the HP design while still doing alright in the obstructed shot. One reason I also like the JHP, even if it fails to expand, is the sharper edge of the shoulder of the HP. I think it is slightly more likely to dig into bone, harder surfaces, glass, etc.... instead of being diverted off course. The 380 doesn't carry a whole lot of momentum to keep it on a straight course so a little help is a good thing to me. Flat point FMJs or flat point lead bullets would be my personal second choice. I think something like the Buffalo Bore load in either FP lead or JHP are really good loads for the 380 but my little LCP just doesn't look like a beefy weapon to be firing much of that type of ammo.

Really, in the end, I think most people spend a lot more time trying to figure out what ammo to carry then they do practicing with their weapon so they might actually hit something when the time comes.

 

[Manco]

What does "as it did in ONE test (on average) mean? Is that an average of ONE test? Several shots in one test? What length barrel was that and in what media?

I meant the average result of one episode or batch of testing. Here is all of the information on it:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/380ACP ammunition performance in ballistic gelatin.pdf

Note that while the WWB load in this caliber is indeed a bit light, the Federal FMJ load is even lighter. Perhaps this is generally true for FMJ versus purpose-designed defensive ammo. Be that as it may, they still get pretty good penetration.

Regardless, even if it penetrates that deeply in gelatin it retains very little energy and I guarantee that any barrier would decrease that dramatically. A 90gr JHP may penetrate deeper in bare gelatin than a 90 gr JHP 100-150fps faster but I would wager the latter would do much better after barriers than the slower round.

One can never quite tell without actually doing tests, but your supposition seems reasonable to me (it may or may not be true, but it's reasonable).

The extra speed and energy do help the little round. You may not think so but hey, everyone has their opinion.

I just can't know for sure without the appropriate test results, which may well indicate the opposite of what even informed intuition would suggest. What I do know is that even the 12" of penetration of the best JHPs that one gets in the common case is a bit marginal by the standards of some, including my own, and that those who prefer greater penetration should consider FMJ rounds, specifically flat-nosed ones for those who buy into that particular theory. I gave the only two examples that I knew of at the top of my head: WWB, and the hot but costly Buffalo Bore loads. Then you jumped on WWB as being light in comparison to typical defensive ammo, which is true, although that appears to be common among target loads, as Federal's is even lighter. I'm not one who automatically assumes that hotter is always better, so I'll leave it up to the readers to decide what's best for their own needs.

In the absence of comprehensive and compelling test results for FMJ ammo in this caliber, it seems reasonable to choose the hot Buffalo Bore load for defensive use. I just couldn't tell you for sure whether it's really better or not, that's all. One would think so, but one could be surprised at times, too, particularly when relatively high velocities (not applicable to .380 ACP, but in general) and/or lightweight, low sectional density bullets (applicable to .380 ACP) are involved.

 

[jon_in_wv]

Fair enough. The 380 is not my first pick for defense no matter how you slice it but a capable man with a 380 is a lot more dangerous than a boob with a .45.

BTW, the reason I singled out the WWB is the fact that so many seem to recommend it as a defensive load because of its flat bullet but they ignore the fact that it just lacks velocity compared to other defensive loads. I think if that is your cup of tea the Buffalo Bore round is a much better choice.

I just checked their site because I wanted to post the numbers for the round we are discussing and I saw this one. 1100fps out of a P3AT??? Holy Cripes.

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=129

Here is the flap point load we were talking about.

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=216


And they have a non +p load too. I'm going to order some of these.

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=216

(Now before some smart alec pipes in saying, "there is no +p in 380 according to SAAMI blah blah", I KNOW that. But its called their +p load so thats what I'll refer to it as. If they called it their Laser Boolit Crook Stopper, I'd refer to it as that.)

 

[Crimp]

I'm using the new Winchester PDX-1 95gr JHP rounds for carry. They shoot well in the TCP.

 

[Fastcast]

a capable man with a 380 is a lot more dangerous than a boob with a .45.

No doubt.

 

[Zerodefect]

WWB deosn't even cycle the slide on my Kahr p380 properly. That stuff is way too weak.

Corbon, Federal make good defensive ammo. Winchester has good JHP ammo, but thier plinking/range ammo is strictly that.

 

[greyeyezz]

+1 on Gold Dots. My Bersa loves them.

 

[trombosis]

I didn't realize this simple question would spark so much debate!