Peep sight questions -- what should my sight picture look like?

[Corn-Picker]

I'm new to using peep sights. Before I develop any bad habits at the range I wanted to ensure I was starting with the right technique. I have a CZ527 that I'll use with a peep sight (a ghost ring on the rear of the receiver and the stock front sight minus the hood).

Obviously I should center the front sight in the ring, but I'm not sure if I should center my front bead on the target, or if I should center my target on top of the front bead. I can see advantages to either; it might be more natural to center everything (including the point of aim) in the center of the ghost ring, but if I center my target on top of the bead I don't obscure my target.

I made a picture to show what I'm trying to describe. Is the image on the left or right correct? Maybe neither is correct



My micrometer says that the front bead is 0.070" wide, and the front bead is 27" from my eye. If my math is correct then the front bead obscures almost 9.5" of the target at 100 yards, and over 14" at 150 yards (which is about as far as I'd be comfortable shooting a deer with a 7.62x39). Is that typical for a front sight that one would use with a peep sight? The carbine was setup for a notch type sight, so I don't know if the front post is optimal for peep sights.

 

[birdshot8's]

You should not see the ring. Sight so you can place the bead at 6 o'clock at the spot you want to hit.

 

[strambo]

It's really up to you with a dot like that. Personally, I choose picture #1 as it is more precise. You can still use sight picture #2 close in. Just make your choice and zero it that way.

 

[rcmodel]

+1
The whole object of an aperture rear sight is, you shouldn't try to focus on it.

Focus only on the front sight and let the target and rear ring blur out.

Your eye will automatically center the brightest part of the rear aperture hole without you trying to see it.

The 'ring' should appear as a barely visible 'ghost' in your vision.

rc

 

[amflyer]

This is the problem with a bead front. With a partridge style flat, you have an index for elevation, and can more precisely center the target.

If it were me, I would sight so the bullet lands right on top of the bead, it as in picture one, for a lower 1/3 shot on the ungulate.

 

[Malamute]

I sight mine to put the bullet right at the tip of the front sight at the prefered range,... maybe an inch or so above it.

Everyone says to completely ignore the rear peep, but I've pretty much always been very aware of them. I dont try to focus on them, but I'm very aware of them and how they are relating to the front sight when shooting.

 

[MartinS]

Try both. Pasting the bead on what you want to hit can be faster and sometimes more repeatable than getting an imaginary bullseye perched just so on top of a round dot.

 

[Malamute]

Try both. Pasting the bead on what you want to hit can be faster and sometimes more repeatable than getting an imaginary bullseye perched just so on top of a round dot.

I agree about trying different things, but I'm not following about an imaginary bullseye.

 

[Inebriated]

He's talking about having a 6:00 hold, so that the POI is right at the tip of the front post... And on a deer, you don't have a bullseye, so you have to know your POI is directly above the front post, and adjust accordingly.

Either way you do it, focus on the front sight and not the rear or the target, and practice practice practice. It really doesn't matter which way you go, a dead hold or a 6:00, as long as you can do it repeatably at the furthest ranges you intend to hunt.

 

[Malamute]

I understand how to use sights, I didnt understand why one would have to imagine a bullseye.

A round target, or "bullseye" is just what one would use as an aiming point to establish a hunting or practical zero, since they are a regular and contrasting object to use for reference. Scoring targets deals with making hits in the center scoring rings, and one may adjust to hit some amount above the 6:00 to make center hits for scoreing in formal target shooting, but has little to do with using a bullseye target for a practical hunting zero. The 6:00 hold is simply the easiest to see and reference, and I tend to make the hits just above that point. Zeroing for practical use, I'm not scoring a target for bullseyes, so scoring rings have no use in that application. Whether blade or bead, adjusting so the bullet hits at or right above the tip of the front sight seems easier than covering a target with one type (bead) and using the tip with another type (blade). I guess you can get used to doing it different ways. I've tried to keep it simple and use them all the same.

 

[crodent]

Imagining a bullseye?

Do you mean imagining a Cross hair because that is how most people are taught to use peep sights especially in the military and it works well for a lot of people
Did you mean 0.070 inches wide. I would use POI that way if you get a light load it will be a little low but still hit and if you get a heavy load it will not matter and I would consider a different sight either front or rear
I have pushed mine out to 400 yards on an antelope but I think 300 will be the max from now on

 

[Milkmaster]

Most peep sights can use differing sizes of apertures. The smaller apertures are more accurate, but can get so small that it is hard to see the target. I encourage you to try several and see what fits your eyes on that particuar gun. It sure helped me. The aperture in this picture was a little too big. I went a size down, and it is perfect now.

 

[readyeddy]

The eye automatically focuses on the center of the aperature, so for me it's more simple to zero with a center hold instead of a 6 o'clock hold. I focus on the top of the front sight and that's my POI at the zero range.

 

[Scooter22]

You can sight in either way. For target shooting I use #1. For big game under 200yds I use #2. That way all I have to do is cover the spot I want to hit with the bead and shoot. If you have a averagely accurate gun, say around 2" @ 100yds your still 4" or so @200. Well in the heart/lung kill zone on big game. JMHO

 

[Bart B.]

Readyeddy, human eyes cannot focus on anything 3 to 4 inches away. You may be thinking about the decades old myth that aiming eyes automatically center the front sight in its center and the front sight can appear anywhere in the aperture's field of view. One has to intentionally center the front sight in the aperture's field of view else the bullet will strike away from the desired impact in the direction the front sight's reference is from the field of view's center.

The aiming eye should focus on the front sight for best accuracy. You can't always go that in hunting conditions.

 

[readyeddy]

They say to ignore the aperature and focus on the front sight and it automatically centers the front sight. But like you, I try to center the front sight within the aperature.

But I get this nagging feeling that my eye is centering the target instead of the front sight because I'm "ignoring" the aperature.

To eliminate all doubts, I center everything within the aperature, both the top of the front sight and the center of the target, and zero for the POI at the zero range, usually 100 yards.

 

[Bart B.]

That "center hold" on bullseye targets is also known as the Navy hold. The bullseye appears to be floating in water and half submerged. On darker days on the range, it gets harder to center the front sight vertically the same for each shot.

All of which is why the "6-o'clock" hold typically enables best accuracy. Positioning is more repeatable from shot to shot. Just "put the pumpkin on the fence post." But you have to lower the rear sight on dark days as the bullseye appears smaller in diameter. Hense, the old moniker for 6-o'clock holds is "light's up, sight's up; light's down, sight's down." 1/4 to 1/2 MOA change is usually all that's needed.

 

[IWAC]

In the service, I was told not to worry about the rear sight. The eye would automatically center the rear sight aperture, because it was brighter, then put the front sight where you want to hit, and fire. I wore glasses, and that worked well for me.

I had a "peep" sight on my Anschutz, and the aperture was too small, so I drilled it out to about 1/8 inch, which worked very well.

The six o'clock hold (the top of the front sight at the bottom of the bulls eye), takes into consideration the recoil and barrel time of the handgun bullet. Rifles, maybe not so much. Fire, and by the time the bullet exits the barrel, it is (theoretically) in the bullseye. The "flat tire" hold, where the flat top of the front sight is slightly into the bullseye circle, is more for handguns or others with flat front sights, I think, and covering the bullseye with the front sight are all options. I used that one for IPSC. I believe it's a personal choice. Whichever gives you better accuracy. For real precision, I prefer a scope, tho.

That shot by Billy Dixon at Indian Wells: WOW! 1200 yards plus, iirc...with an old "Buffalo Rifle" was a combination of great luck for the shooter, but the deceased Indian had to be the unluckiest savage in the universe that day! The front sight of the rifle would cover at least a half-dozen Indians at that range. Maybe he didn't even hit the one he was aiming at!

"Helluva shot, Billy!" Was he going to tell them different??? Nooooo... but It saved the day, and a legend was born!

For me, the size of the dot is one problem with the red/green electronic sights. At short ranges, they are fine and quick, but at extended ranges, say beyond 100 yards, the 4 and 5 mm dots are too large, obscuring too much of the target. I finally found one with a 3mm dot, and bought it. Not a real lot of difference.
Good luck!
It is A Fine And Pleasant Madness!

 

[Bart B.]

Regarding:

In the service, I was told not to worry about the rear sight. The eye would automatically center the rear sight aperture, because it was brighter, then put the front sight where you want to hit, and fire.

That's the standard byline from armed service weapons training folks who don't understand why the top ranked marksmen on the military rifle teams win matches and set records by centering the front sight in the aperture. Front sight's anyplace in the view through the aperture is good enough for "minute of enemy" accuracy, but that's all. They can't shoot any better than that.

Readers of this thread can do whatever they want.

And for the following:

Fire, and by the time the bullet exits the barrel, it [the front sight top] is (theoretically) in the bullseye.

Not at all. That assumes everyone holds the arm exactly the same way and its recoil movement during barrel time is always the same. Never happens. Rifle barrels' bore axes wiggle through several MOA (mostly vertical, a little horizontal; depends on where the center of mass is of all the stuff holding the barrel and how powerful the load is) for the last few inches of the barrel; where the bullet leaves is not at the same place the bore pointed when the primer fired the round. The front sight moves with the muzzle. It's the reason why several people have different zeros for the same rifle and ammo across all shooting positions. The bore axis also moves sideways before the bullet leaves.

The bore axis on bullet exit points at a point above the target enough to compensate for bullet drop and sight height down range. Where the line of sight is relative to the bullseye center could be anywhere. This can be seen by using a collimator in your firearm after it's zeroed for some range and shooting position to see where it's reference is relative to the line of sight. Rarely, if ever does it show the bore axis align on a point on the target an amount equal to sight height above bore axis plus bullet drop above group center. It can be off a lot in both windage and elevation. None of mine ever pointed there. That's why a zero obtained with a bench rested shouldered rifle has a different zero when fired offhand without a rest.

Double rifle's left barrel points several MOA to the right of the point of aim where the line of sight is. When the bullet exits, the bore axis is perfectly aligned windage wise, but the line of sight is way off to the left.

Go measure how much higher a .357 Mag revolver's front sight top is above bore axis compared to the rear sight. That muzzle axis is pointed well below the aiming point when the firing pin falls and fires the round. But the bore's lined up to some point above the target by the time bullets leave.

 

[eastbank]

i like a square post instead of a bead, like this, its off of my m1a as i installed a national match front sight with a thinner post. eastbank.

 

[MartinS]

If we all thought of everything here before we pulled the trigger there would never be another ammo shortage.

 

[olafhardtB]

Martin S has it right. I could not hit squat with my m-1 until one night while taking a shower I realized all I had to do was relax, put the front sight on the target and fire. Worked like magic. Don't worry about sight picture, breathing, trigger control. Just put the front sight on the target and shoot. The next day was record range. I fired on the high end of expert. For me I shoot for fun and a peep sight is so much fun. I make most of my sights. They are just supposed to be a hole that I can move around till I can hit where I want to.

 

[Coop45]

Make that Adobe Walls.

 

[IWAC]

Woops! You are right!

 

[gwpercle]

What works best for me is to have the rear sight mounted as close to my shooting eye as practical , then look through the hole, not really trying to center it. Then focus on the front sight and target (you can't really do both , somethings going to be fuzzy) I close my other eye, and try to mentally center front sight and target in my field of vision. I can't really see the hole I'm looking through but I try to get the sight picture in the middle of my vision .
I sight in so the bullet lands on the top of post or bead, I want to see the spot where I want the bullet to land.
I do better with a peep sight if I close my non-aiming eye. I know everyone says shoot with both eyes open, but with a peep, it works better.
Hope this helps.
Gary