Pelosi tosses cold water on assault-weapon ban

[SaMx]

a straw purchase would be if you're son gave you money to buy a rifle for him, because he's a prohibited person.
Giving a rifle as a gift is perfectly legal, as long as the person you are giving it to is not prohibited from owning it.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

jimmyranthomson: "DOD,Buying a gun to give as a gift IS legal as long as you use your money and buy it for yourself first. It is your property until you give it away."

Jimmy, you have just defined a "straw purchase."

No he didn't. Straw purchase is all about your actual INTENT at the time of purchase. What he described is an actual intent to buy it for himself, then later coincidentally, deciding to sell it or give it away - that is NOT a straw purchase. That is the opposite of straw purchase, which requires an actual intent to acquire for the purpose transferring it to someone else (regardless of whose money is used). YOU need to read some caselaw on the subject, because frankly you are flat incorrect.

 

[Eschaton]

If the kid gives money to their parent with the specific intent of a firearm purchase, then yes its an illegal straw purchase.

I certainly hope that is a state-by-state issue. Because I've talked to several gun store owners and employees and they've all explained the process I need to go through to get my handgun. Have mom or dad buy it for me.

 

[highorder]

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b2

A gift is NOT a straw purchase. Can we move back on topic?

 

[61chalk]

Face the facts...the ban in one form or another is coming, on semi-auto's, on ammo....They believe these weapons are being sold in mass across the border an thats why there is a drug problem, they will use this to promote their ban on as many guns as they can an also on ammo. Illinois is already talking about mandatory $1,000,000.00 gun insurance in case your gun is used to commit a crime, if you don't get the insurance you are a felon, BUT, no insurance agency offers such a deal...this is just talk but this is what they want...an guess what...there is more of them (Liberals) who now rule the White House, they can an will pass anything they want....we may not like it, but until another conservative gets back in its going to get worse. They will interpet the 2nd ammendent their way, right or wrong the numbers are on their side....

 

[Duke of Doubt]

Winslow: "Straw purchase is all about your actual INTENT at the time of purchase. "

No, Counsellor; intent may be inferred.

Here is ATF's idea of what a "straw purchase" means:

http://www.atf.gov/field/philadelphia/press/050101straw.htm

In pertinent part, "A "straw purchase" is a situation in which a person is using a "straw purchaser"(another person) to acquire one or more firearms from a Federally licensed firearms dealer, to hide the identity of the true purchaser or ultimate possessor of the firearm/s."

 

[everallm]

So 61Chalk

Having both the White House and Pelosi both stamp out very publicly any mention of firearm controls is nothing, but a bill in IL without sponsors which has died in committee is proof ?

As for "conservatives" you mean the oh so helpful crew from the last 8 years.


Get a grip

 

[winston smith]

"...to hide the identity..." of a prohibited person?

Not for a gift. Not for a gift to a family member. Not for another person who is not legaly prohibited from buying it for himself.

Right?

 

[Duke of Doubt]

Winston, my point is that technically, Little Johnnie and Dad may be inferred to be hiding Little Johnnie's identity as the true transferee, as Little Johnnie would be unable to purchase the gun for himself. Currently, not a lot of enforcement happens in this area. And my point was that if this area WAS to see a lot of enforcement, along with the others I mentioned far above, it would change the landscape of the firearms community without changing the statutes at all.

 

[DocBoCook]

I just think they are waiting until they've gotten more political capital before taking on 2A issues. but it's coming down the pipe and it's up to us to stop them

 

[Girodin]

Do you remember him saying that? I don’t deny he may have said it, but it wasn’t the thrust of the media reporting on his gun control position.

He and many other Democrats said it repeatedly only it sounded like this, "I favor common sense gun laws." Which is liberal for assault weapons ban and the so called gun show loophole. Those two things and the assertation that they are common sense (and the implicit arguement that they do not violate the 2nd) are planks in the Dem platform.

Now for the good news it is not politically expedient to pursue a ban in the near future.

Bad news if it were to become so they would do it in a flash if they could.

She is perhaps my least favorite politician to hold a public office in this country.

Worse than your old mayor Rocky?

 

[hso]

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/ffrrg/transcripts/ltfour.htm

 

[K3]

I've never bought the argument that Obama and Congress have too much to worry about with the economy to be thinking about 2A issues.

They have large staffs for a reason - to be able to deal with multiple issues.

 

[61chalk]

Sorry everallan, glad to hear that Illinios deal is gone, ...as for the ban or any ban, it ran out in 2004, an I didn't see anyone in Washington try an put it back in place...MY opinion is that I do not trust nor believe a play for a more extreme gun ban is on the way, dispite what Pelosi says....you've heard of people saying one thing an doing another right? I hope by the end of the year I can say.."I was wrong, there isn't going to be anykind of ban of anykind..." but I have seen tooooo many lies....

 

[Duke of Doubt]

Thanks for the transcript, hso.

 

[sarge83]

It will come...

 

[Master Blaster]

Remember the movie Tombstone?

Remember what Curly Bill said to Johny Ringo?

"Easy Son now aint the time"

Yeah but they were both dead by the end of the movie.

 

[waterhouse]

But if you buy a gun, and a day later give it to your son, that is a straw purchase.

Absolutely false.

From the 4473, in the section labeled Notices, Instructions, and Definitions:

Question 11.a Actual Transferee/Buyer For purposes of this form, you are the actual transferee/buyer if you are purchasing this firearm for yourself. . . You are also the actual transferee buyer if you are legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift for a third party.

Keep in mind, the fact that a person is prohibited from owning a gun has nothing to do with a straw purchase. If you buy a gun for someone using their money, you have made a straw purchase. If you buy a gun with your money and you give it, as a gift, to your son, friend, uncle, etc. there is no straw purchase.

Winston, my point is that technically, Little Johnnie and Dad may be inferred to be hiding Little Johnnie's identity as the true transferee, as Little Johnnie would be unable to purchase the gun for himself. Currently, not a lot of enforcement happens in this area.

Not a lot of enforcement happens because no law is broken when a dad buys his son a gun as a gift.

 

[ugaarguy]

Straw Purchases

Have any of you actually read the 4473? Of particular note are the instructions for

Question 11.a. Actual Actual Transferee/Buyer: For the purposes of this form, you are the actual transferee/buyer if you are purchasing the firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (e.g. redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment, raffle winner). You are also the actual transferee/buyer if you are legitimately purchasing the firearm as a gift for a third party. ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT THE ACTUAL TRANSFEREE/BUYER of the firearm and must answer "NO" to question 11.a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr. Brown goes to buy a buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm and should answer "YES" to question 11.a. However, you may not transfer a firearm to any person you know or have reasonable cause to believe is prohibited under 18 U.S.C. 922(g), (n), or (x).

 

[Duke of Doubt]

Waterhouse, I'm going to post the text of the ATF transcript for which hso posted the link, above:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/ffrrg/transcripts/ltfour.htm

Note in particular the "Narrator" section at the bottom.

STRAW PURCHASE ATTEMPT


BOBBY
That’s it, Mr. Thomas, the black one—right there.

MR THOMAS
Okay, I see it.

CARLA
Can I help you with something?

MR. THOMAS
Yes, we’ll take that one right there.

CARLA
You’re Mr. Thomas, right?

MR. THOMAS
Yes, I am.

CARLA
Is this your son?

MR THOMAS
No, this is my neighbor Bobby.

MR. LUCAS
Can I see you for a minute, Carla?

CARLA
Sure Mr. Lucas. What is it?

MR. LUCAS
Do you think we should sell that gun to Mr. Thomas?

CARLA
I don’t think that it would be a legal transaction. It looks like Mr. Thomas wants to buy the gun for Bobby, who is obviously underage. Also, Mr. Thomas isn’t Bobby’s parent or guardian.

MR. LUCAS
You’re right. There are two problems here. First, it looks like Mr. Thomas might be attempting to make an illegal “straw purchase” on Bobby’s behalf. Second, since Bobby is obviously under 21 it is unlawful for Western Arms to sell him a handgun. Whenever you doubt the legality of a firearms acquisition, you should deny the transaction. In this particular case, we’ll deny the sale.

CARLA
I’m sorry sir, I can’t sell you the handgun. You appear to be buying the gun for Bobby rather than for yourself. Also, I am prohibited under Federal law from selling a handgun to anyone under the age 21. This transaction is illegal.

Here’s a pamphlet with more information about some current federal handgun laws.

MR. LUCAS
Good work Carla. You handled that well.


CARLA
Do straw purchases only involve underage customers?

MR. LUCAS
Not always. A straw purchase is a purchase in which the actual purchaser uses someone else—a.k.a. the “straw person” to make the purchase and complete the paperwork. Generally straw purchasers are utilized because the actual purchaser is not eligible to conduct a transaction because they’re in one or more legally prohibited categories, such as being addicted to a controlled substance, being a felon, being underage, and so on.

However, a straw purchase occurs even when the actual purchaser is not a prohibited person. The crime committed is knowingly making a false statement on the Form 4473 indicating that the straw purchaser is the actual purchaser, when this is not the case.

Felons, who are also prohibited from conducting a firearms transaction, will sometimes attempt to obtain guns this way, because they wouldn’t pass the NICS background check and could not truthfully fill out Form 4473. If, however, Bobby was with his father or other legal guardian, and his father was legally eligible to obtain the handgun as a gift for Bobby, his father would fill out Form 4473, undergo the NICS check, and assume legal responsibility for the transaction and the gun. Bobby’s father could truthfully complete the form 4473 to indicate that he is the actual purchaser because he would take title to the weapon and then transfer the firearm to Bobby as a gift.

CARLA
What if a customer who qualifies to own a gun buys a firearm as a gift for someone else?

MR. LUCAS
The same rules apply. A transaction is legal as long as the person who fills out form 4473 does so truthfully and completes it as the actual purchaser. In that particular situation, we usually like to make sure they are aware of the rules associated with ATF I 5300.2. Again, you should feel comfortable denying the purchase if you think the customer is being dishonest in any way.

CARLA
Suppose Bobby wanted to buy something other than a handgun, like a rifle or a shotgun? Would he still be ineligible?

MR. LUCAS
Bobby would have to be 18 or older to buy a long gun from a Federal firearms licensee. Even then, if he can’t provide the appropriate photo identification, or if you believe he’s misrepresenting himself, you should deny the sale.

NARRATOR
Keep in mind that a straw purchase is a purchase in which the actual purchaser uses someone else—a.k.a. the “straw person”—to purchase the firearm and complete the paperwork. Generally, the straw purchaser is used because the actual purchaser is not eligible to conduct a transaction because he or she is a felon or other prohibited person. However, a straw purchase occurs even when the actual purchaser is not a prohibited person. The crime committed is knowingly making a false statement on the Form 4473 indicating that the straw purchaser is the actual purchaser, when this is not the case. Additionally make sure you familiarize yourself and anyone who purchases a firearm as a gift with the rules associated with the ATF I 5300.2 pamphlet.

 

[waterhouse]

I read it. And?

The crime committed is knowingly making a false statement on the Form 4473 indicating that the straw purchaser is the actual purchaser, when this is not the case.

The crime committed is perjury. It says so right on the 4473. It also says that you haven't committed perjury if the purchased firearm is a legitimate gift.

From the very text you posted:

If, however, Bobby was with his father or other legal guardian, and his father was legally eligible to obtain the handgun as a gift for Bobby, his father would fill out Form 4473, undergo the NICS check, and assume legal responsibility for the transaction and the gun. Bobby’s father could truthfully complete the form 4473 to indicate that he is the actual purchaser because he would take title to the weapon and then transfer the firearm to Bobby as a gift.

this does not seem to go with your earlier statement of

But if you buy a gun, and a day later give it to your son, that is a straw purchase.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

Okay, waterhouse:

"However, a straw purchase occurs even when the actual purchaser is not a prohibited person. The crime committed is knowingly making a false statement on the Form 4473 indicating that the straw purchaser is the actual purchaser, when this is not the case. Additionally make sure you familiarize yourself and anyone who purchases a firearm as a gift with the rules associated with the ATF I 5300.2 pamphlet."

So Whitey Bulger tells me he'd sure like an AK for his birthday. I go and buy one, and give it to him for his birthday present. Result?

Straw purchase.

 

[ugaarguy]

DOD, did you read my post where I typed verbatim what's on the ATF form 4473? That's the BATFE's definition and examples which are printed on the actual ATF form 4473.

 

[K3]

If, however, Bobby was with his father or other legal guardian, and his father was legally eligible to obtain the handgun as a gift for Bobby, his father would fill out Form 4473, undergo the NICS check, and assume legal responsibility for the transaction and the gun. Bobby’s father could truthfully complete the form 4473 to indicate that he is the actual purchaser because he would take title to the weapon and then transfer the firearm to Bobby as a gift.

Doesn't get much clearer than that.

 

[hso]

Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide 2005 (9/05)/IV/15/B

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/ffrrg/index.htm

Where a person purchases a firearm
with the intent of making a gift of the
firearm to another person, the person
making the purchase is indeed the true
purchaser. There is no straw purchaser
in these instances. In the above example,
if Mr. Jones had bought a firearm
with his own money to give to Mr. Smith
as a birthday present, Mr. Jones could
lawfully have completed Form 4473.
The use of gift certificates would also
not fall within the category of straw purchases.
The person redeeming the gift
certificate would be the actual purchaser
of the firearm and would be properly
reflected as such in the dealer's records.

Mr. Jones may purchase a firearm as a gift as long as the person he's buying it for is illegible to own it. He is the purchaser. He, as the owner, is giving the gift. It doesn't matter if it is gift wrapped right there on the counter and he takes it to the retirement/birthday/wedding party next door, the purchase is legal.