Pennsylvania firearms legal questions. PLEASE HELP!!!

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effengee

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In a house near Bennington, Vermont, USA, North Am
My wife's nephew lives in PA and got himself in a bit of a jam...
He has a CC permit and carries while riding his motorcycle.
Recently, he was almost run off the road by a car full of guys brandishing a shotgun. He rides a Suzuki GSX/R and figured by the way they were acting that they were trying to, for want of a better word, bike-jack him. He drew and fired a round into the air. This scared off the people and they drove away and he raced to his house. The police came to his house and immediately confiscated BOTH of his handguns. They didn't charge him with anything. Just took him and his guns down to the station, asked him a bunch of questions, and then released him, but not his guns, which they are keeping until they (LEO) could "Figure all this mess out"

This happened yesterday afternoon.

IIRC they can't legally take his other gun (the one that was NOT involved and was actually locked in a safe at home at the time) nor can they keep his guns "indefinately" if he hasn't been charged.

Any ideas?

Thanks in advance
 
It depends where in Pa it was...and you didn't tell us.

Stupid as hell firing a round into the air though. He's extremely lucky he didn't get arrested and charged with a whole litany of things.
 
I would never fire a shot in public just to warn someone, especially into the air. He got lucky.
 
Yikes, what a terrible mess.

First he needs to "sit down, shut up, and get an attorney!" Firing a shot was an illegal act for probably several reasons. Right now his first concern is to obtain the help he needs to try and prevent that act from becoming a criminal charge against him or from becoming a conviction if charged. (Firing from/on a road and/or motor vehicle, reckless endangerment, etc.)

The police certainly could decide that his story is compelling and his self-defense would be an affirmative defense against the charges that might be filed against him. They might not press charges. However, as this is a "his story vs. their story" situation, I'd be surprised. At the very least, they need to make sure his shot didn't hit someone or something valuable.

I'll also note that it appears that he was not the party that reported the incident. I assume that, since you didn't say that HE summoned the police to his house, someone else (maybe the other party, maybe a witness) observed what happened, took down his license number, and called him in. That's never a good position to be in.

Just because the police haven't charged him YET, doesn't mean they WON'T. They obviously don't think he's a flight risk and have released him for the time being, but they are conducting an investigation into the altercation, and almost certainly will charge SOMEONE with something. A shot was fired in public. That means one or the other -- OR BOTH -- people involved did something VERY bad. Either the other guy's actions were so bad that your nephew's shot was justified, or it wasn't and your nephew's shot was a criminal offense, or some mix of the two.

As for taking of his handguns, I'd say that's pretty standard procedure. It would be more of a grey area if they took his hunting rifles and shotguns, too, but they need to secure whatever evidence exists at this point, related to the crime. They can't be certain which of his handguns he fired, so took both. Might not like it, but I don't think he can fight that. At least at the moment.

IF charges are not pressed against your nephew and the police tell him that the issue is resolved to their satisfaction, then they will give him his guns back. If they don't, he may have cause to have an attorney write a letter or two or even file suit to get his property returned.

At the moment, though, at least one of those guns is evidence in a criminal investigation ... and your nephew is a primary subject of that investigation.

He has bigger worries than getting his guns back -- in the short term.
 
Legal issues aside, and speaking as a rider, a motorcyclist's best odds frequently are to use the bike's agility and speed to get away from the threat.

I once got away from some rather sketchy people in a car that were a bit too interested in me, on my 25 year old bike.

With that said, get a lawyer, and shut up. (Your wife's nephew, that is)
 
updated info...

It happened in Lewistown...

The police were called by a witness, as he hadn't gotten home yet, but called once he got there.

I don't know the exact situation, it comes from his mom through my wife, and I won't be able to speak to him directly until later tonight when he gets out of work... I didn't get every last little detail as of yet, nor did I give every bit of info I have due to making a long story short, but was just curious and find that this forum always guarantees a few quick responses...

Which it did:D

Keep 'em coming!
thanks
 
update part 2

I just got off the phone with my nephew-in-law...

This all happened friday morning at about 4 am. He outran the car after it tried to run him off the road and was in his driveway dismounting his bike. He was on his way to calling the police when the car followed him into his driveway and the passenger brandished a shotgun. Nephew drew a .38 police special and discharged it accidentally while pointing it in the air. This apparently scared them, because the car fled the scene. The neighbors called police before the nephew could and he was escorted to the State police barracks. While being questioned, other police went to his house, and without a warrant, seized his only other firearm, another handgun. He wasn't charged with anything, but it was stated to him that the car was detained and that two of the occupants had warrants. He asked if they had found the shotgun and was told that they couldn't discuss it. The officers also told him that either way it goes he would not be getting his guns back.

He's never been in trouble with the law before.

I told him to contact a lawyer in a nearby town that is firearms-friendly...

I'll keep you posted...
 
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While being questioned, other police went to his house, and without a warrant, seized his only other firearm, another handgun.
Click to expand...

If they broke into his house, methinks the police are going to have a very bad day in court. Breaking & entering, burglary, trespassing, abuse of power, etc..
 
That makes quite a bit of a more rounded story!

He needs a good attorney and needs to be ready for a tough fight that he certainly can (and should) WIN! Money will always be an issue, but I'd hope that a favorable settlement from the PD might take the sting out of that.

Good luck to him!
 
If he did not shoot AT someone that was endangering his life, then how could it be considered that he fired in self defense. That would be a very hard one to sell to a jury. He only felt the need to fire a gun, not the need to stop an attack on his life.
 
Navy LT they pointed a shotgun at him in his own driveway
He was on his way to calling the police when the car followed him into his driveway and the passenger brandished a shotgun
Click to expand...
That screams self defense to me, he will have to get a court order though to get his guns back.
 
Navy LT they pointed a shotgun at him in his own driveway
Click to expand...

Then maybe he should have shot at the threat to his life to stop the threat vice putting a stray bullet into the air that could have come down anywhere and killed anyone, including himself.
 
Update...

I talked to Jay again and he said that he is going to get a lawyer.
While he awaits the outcome, and in the interest of keeping this going, we were wondering how this affects his CCW permit.

Could he lose it for a first offense?

What are the criteria in PA for losing a CCW and what does one do then?

Would he have been justified emptying on the bad-guys?

Why did the cops say he wouldn't be getting the guns back even If he isn't charged with anything?

See, here in Vermont we don't have these problems.
I don't need a CCW permit AND I have the right to meet lethal force with lethal force. Even more so on my own property...
 
how this affects his CCW permit.

Could he lose it for a first offense?
Click to expand...
Largely up to the sheriff that issued it. Of course, if he is charged with a crime (and convicted) for having shot, then chances are he'll be a "prohibited person" and not eligible to possess firearms anyway. If he's not charged, or found innocent, chances are he'd have no further trouble.

What are the criteria in PA for losing a CCW and what does one do then?
Click to expand...
I don't have all the answers for this, but here is a page from someone who got revoked (http://www.gnbrotz.com/revocation/) and there are some interesting links to read through about how he got revoked and how he got reinstated.

Would he have been justified emptying on the bad-guys?
Click to expand...
It would be disingenuous for anyone to speculate. If he he had justification to SHOOT, then he had justification to kill. If not, then he's got trouble ahead.

From the description of events you gave, I'd think a reasonable person would assume there was a need to use lethal force to defend his life. But I'm hearing one side of the story, second hand.

Why did the cops say he wouldn't be getting the guns back even If he isn't charged with anything?
Click to expand...
Cops say some stupid things some times. And sometimes they say what they've seen happen before. Just because something might not be strictly legal (like holding his guns ad infinitum) doesn't mean that others had the cash or the will to fight it.

See, here in Vermont we don't have these problems.
I don't need a CCW permit AND I have the right to meet lethal force with lethal force. Even more so on my own property...
Click to expand...
We have much the same rights you do, but a shooting is ALWAYS bad news. It may be justified, and it may be necessary, but it always takes a toll.

I'm sorry for your nephew that he has to go through this. Suffice to say it WOULDN'T be better if he'd killed someone.
 
effengee said:
Would he have been justified emptying on the bad-guys?
Click to expand...

Sounds like you guys need some serious CCW training. Shooting warning shots into the air?!? "Emptying" on the bad-guys?!? Give me a break.

Let me give you a hint as to survival in the world of CCW. You shoot only when you feel your life is threatened, and I don't have any problem at all with whether or not "Jay's" life was threatened. It seems like it was.

When you shoot because your life is threatened, you shoot AT THE THREAT! Shooting into the may scare the threat away, but it isn't shooting to stop the threat and it endangers innocent bystanders. Bullets do come back down, and they have been known to hit and kill innocent people. A jury may very easily be convinced that if you weren't scared enough to shoot at the threat, then you must not have been truly in fear of your life. Have you ever heard of police shooting into the air?

When the threat is stopped, you do NOT continue to shoot until empty. Making statements online and in court about "emptying on the bad-guys" could very well mean the difference between a not guilty by reason of self-defense and guilty of second degree murder conviction.
 
WOW!

I love how I can get a well-informed response and then get someone who wants to pick apart the way I state things...

I just want to say that I don't have any paid-for firearms training.
At this point in my life I don't really see the need for it.
What I know I've learned by reading, watching, and doing, on my own or with my family/friends.
Just as now, I'm asking for advice on a subject that I don't know about.

I have been in bad situations when guns were involved. Luckily, I've never had to shoot someone... But I've also never lived in Pennsylvania.

Thanks for the links and the good advice.
 
effengee said:
I love how I can get a well-informed response and then get someone who wants to pick apart the way I state things...
Click to expand...

I hope you never find yourself on the wrong end of a conversation with law enforcement or hear the phrase "Will the defendant please rise."

A statement of "emptying on the bad-guy" in either of those cases will be a ticket to a jail cell.
 
"Nephew drew a .38 police special and discharged it accidentally while pointing it in the air."

The above quote bothers me the most. If one were to claim that self defense was the reason for discharging the firearm, then admits it was discharged by "accident" there is a serious problem. It is one or the other, not both!

The story sounds suspect to me, we do not have all of the facts. This is the "nephews" problem and his mess. It is his responsibility to know the laws concerning lethal force. It is also your nephews responsibility to understand the bill of rights and how they apply to him.

I am going to make a wild guess here and assume that this nephew has already talked to the police. This was probably one of his greatest mistakes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

There is nothing you or anyone here can do for this entirely absurd situation.
 
Example

http://meadvilletribune.com/local/x...man-jailed-for-allegedly-shooting-gun-in-city

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_jail_time_for_reckless_endangerment

In US law, endangerment comprises several types of crimes involving conduct that is wrongful and reckless or wanton, and likely to produce death or grievous bodily harm to another person.
The offense is intended to prohibit and therefore deter reckless or wanton conduct that wrongfully creates a substantial risk of death or serious injury to others.
The law specifies several types of endangerment:
Child endangerment: placing a child in a potentially harmful situation, either through negligence or misconduct.
Reckless endangerment: A person commits the crime of reckless endangerment if the person recklessly engages in conduct which creates a substantial risk of serious physical injury to another person. “Reckless” conduct is conduct that exhibits a culpable disregard of foreseeable consequences to others from the act or omission involved. The accused need not intentionally cause a resulting harm or know that his conduct is substantially certain to cause that result. The ultimate question is whether, under all the circumstances, the accused’s conduct was of that heedless nature that made it actually or imminently dangerous to the rights or safety of others.
 
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This is a very valuable "cautionary" tale that many people should read. It gives some important insights into what you should and should not do, and should or should not say.

Unfortunately it all comes to late for your nephew. At this point, he should make sure that his attorney really is THE BEST available and he should stop talking unless his attorney instructs him to.

I really do wish him the best. Realizing how incredibly risky even the most successful self-defense shooting situation really is -- especially after the shots are fired (!) -- has made me scour this forum and many other insightful sources for just this kind of input.

If I'm ever in that terrible moment, I hope I'll have learned from enough people's mistakes to mitigate my own damages. Even so, I dread that day and hope it never comes.
 
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