Perfect SHTF weapon

[chaim]

Yeah, yeah, I know- overdone. Bear with me though.

Well, with the one year anniversary of Hurricane Katrina come and gone, and the 5 year for 9/11 coming up, it got me thinking again about the likely SHTF scenarios we might actually see and what we can do about them.

I don't think the invasion or Gov't gone bad and everyone is in rebellion type scenarios lots of people like to talk about are going to happen, and I want to stay away from that kind of "SHTF" here if we can.

I'm thinking the realistic possibilities- riots, major natural disasters, and these days possibly a terror attack even along the lines of a dirty bomb or the like. One (riot) is a definate "bug in" situation, the dirty bomb is a definate "bug out" situation if you live in the effected area, and the natural disaster could be either.

Well, for the bug in situation there is no need to worry about a separate "SHTF" gun since your normal home defense set up with maybe some extra ammo should probably handle it. Of course, if the possibility of a Katrina/New Orleans style confiscation happens then the bug out criteria come into play even in a bug in situation. For a bug out situation (or confiscation if you are bugged in) there are different needs.

I've been thinking about the lessons learned from watching what New Orleans went through on the news. I don't think any kind of long gun is the answer. I don't want a small pistol or revolver because there could be dangerous characters out in groups, and when not in groups there are more out than usual so your chances of multiple encounters goes up, so the capacity to hold a lot of rounds or be reloaded quickly (or ideally both) would be nice. Also, the extra sight radius and more easily shot precision shots could possibly come in handy with a larger pistol. However, I don't want a full-sized service pistol either as I want it concealable. Something CZ 40B, CZ 75 Compact/PCR/P01, SIG 229, Taurus PT911/PT940, and Glock 19/23 size is about perfect.

Some random thoughts informing this choice:
1) Even if you are in a gun friendly area, Katrina proved that a CCW may not be enough. People are in the middle of an area with tons of looters and the cops confiscated guns and arrested people who wouldn't give them up. I don't want my gun I am counting on to be visible and likely to get the police's attention.
2) Even if in an anti-gun no CCW area, carry anyway. Services are down, people are hungry, thristy and society has collapsed locally- in many people the animal comes out. If looters (or worse) are out and about, I want to be able to defend me and mine.

Both of those demand a concealable gun, and no long-guns.

3) You never know, in such a situation I want to be prepared for as much as possible with my choice of firearm. Mobs, gangs (MS13 has just recently made its first Howard County appearance), and other nefarious groups of people may attack in such a situation, not just individuals. They may even attack from a distance and after a natural disaster your normal places to run and hide may not be there (especially if there are flood waters). So, this combination makes me want both some capacity and removable mags as well as a decent sight radius.

So, with all three in mind, I figure the medium framed, large CCW or small service pistol type guns are about perfect. If you are a 1911 guy (I am but I prefer DA on my defensive arms these days) or can conceal full-sized guns, or it is winter so most of us could, then I may adjust this to a full-sized pistol. However, the beauty of these mid-sized guns is they do have enough sight radius and capacity that you don't really NEED to go bigger.

In my personal case, once it proves reliable (I haven't yet taken delivery) my SIG 229 in .40S&W will probably be my choice. It should be reliable, it should be about the right combination of size and concealability for this role, it holds a fair number of rounds (12) in a hard hitting caliber. It also helps that I have 450 rounds of FMJ and 500 rounds of JHP on hand for the caliber and 3 mags for the gun (I will be ordering more mags soon).

 

[flip180]

If it was a Katrina type situation all over again with a temporary breakdown of local government and law enforcement, I'd go with a concealed handgun as not to draw unwanted attention to myself with either my 870HD or my M1A Scout close at hand but out of sight. I'd also stay put or come back as soon as possible try to help put my community back together again.

Flip.

 

[carterbeauford]

Sig 229 should fit your reqirements perfectly.

 

[lawson]

if the S has really hit the F, i would like to have a high-capacity semi-auto rifle in my hands.

that being said, when it comes to handguns, you hit the nail on the head. there are many factors to consider for a handgun to carry in such a situation. these are what i consider to be important in a SHTF handgun

1) stopping power: it would be nice if it would only take one cartridge to eliminate one threat.

2) ammo capacity/fast reloading: threats may come in large groups. i'm a revolver guy mostly, i carry revolvers 90% of the time in my day to day life, but in that situation i would carry one of my autos.

3) concealability (if needed): i put a special note on "if needed" because if you have a rifle in your hands, you don't really need to worry about concealing your sidearm. on the other hand, there are many situations in which you might need to carry just a sidearm, concealed. unlike a strictly CCW handgun, size and comfort is not the main issue. luckily, with today's selection of handguns, you can get the best of both worlds.

4) reliability/serviceability: will the gun work when you need it the most? is it easy to field strip and clean without tools? are spare parts available and are you able to replace them yourself? in that kind of situation you won't be able to order from Brownell's or take it to your local gunsmith for repairs.

5) availability of ammunition: is it easy to find? is it plentiful? can you afforadably stock up on it?

and most importantly, choose a gun that you are comfortable with, and can reliably hit your targets with.

 

[Oldtimer]

Without a doubt, the 12-gauge shotgun is the "ultimate" weapon for "SHTF", even though it lacks concealability. With birdshot, it can drop small game for food. The larger sizes of buckshot work great for "defensive shooting". Slugs give you a longer distance AND "rifle" accuracy out to 100+ distances.

The "concealibility" aspect, of course, goes to the handgun. In a "SHTF" situation, a concealed handgun MIGHT be a necessity! Not very good for dropping small game, though, and somewhat limited in distance. More of a close-in, totally defensive firearm.

Center-fire rifles? Quite a few of them can be downright "concealed", if you wear the proper attire! If you haven't watched the movie "Heat", then you should! The three bad guys that go into the bank are carring folding stock/collapsible stock rifles (CAR-15's and a Galil with a folding stock). When the Galil-holding bad guy exits, his rifle is relatively "un-detected" under his suit coat! Realistically, those bad guys had a great plan, and WOULD have gotten away in "real life", had it not been for the relentless pursuit of them by Al Pacino's Robbery/Homicide unit! The police intervention was what CAUSED the shoot-out to take place, changing the somewhat "textbook" bank robbery into a "Hollywood-ized" situation....that later turned out to be a REAL confrontation during the North Hollywood bank robbery shoot-out (the REAL bad guys actually used the movie "Heat" as a training film!)

For "bug-outs", handguns are probably the best. For long-term "SHTF" situations, a rifle or shotgun might be the ultimate. On the other hand, it would be best if you arm yourself with both a handgun AND a rifle or shotgun! A handgun doesn't add much bulk, is more concealable, and is much easier to carry during physically exertive moves.

 

[10-Ring]

More like weapons -

If in my neighborhood, on the go...USP 45

At home - shotgun

On the road, evacuting city/county/state - AR

 

[Drue]

I got back to New Orleans on Sept 5, 2005, one week after the storm and the CoE levee failure. We were working 24/7 on driving sheet pile across the outfall canal mouths, building limestone roads to the canal breaches and opening the bridges in the Industrial Canal for barge traffic. Although the Army was moving in, in large numbers, parts of town were like the wild wild west, especially at night. My Glock 23 was always attached to me and there was an AK behind the front seat of my truck, under a bunch of plans. Fortunately I did not have to use either but I was VERY glad that they were there.

Drue

 

[Lord Bodak]

In a natural disaster sort of SHTF situation, you're rarely (if ever) going to be taking shots that require the range of a semi-auto battle rifle.

My personal choice is the GP-100 on my belt with an 1894C to go with it. This avoids the "evil black rifle" reaction from others, provides more than enough power and range to deal with the situation, and leaves you only needing to carry one type of ammunition (probably a 158gr JSP would be best to share between the two guns).

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

Good thread! I never get bored of these. Interesting and well thought out considerations.

Here's some of my thoughts.

1] Regardless of ANY firearm choice. The number 1 requirement, above and beyond firepower, capacity etc...is WATERPROOF AMMO.

Let's step back for a second from all the ultimate-SHTF weapon talk and focus on an area that is often overlooked. A firearm is part of a system. That system is you, the gun, the mags, the ammo, the holster etc..total package. A system is only as reliable or as good as its weakest part. In a Katrina situation, or any situation - you cann predict if you will get really wet for some reason. Imagine having to cross a river to escape a city after a dirty bomb because bridges are blocked because of traffic accidents, or the police are trying to contain contaminated people for the benefit of everyone else? Or a Katrina like flood...possibilites are endless.

The military has a damn good reason why they require sealed ammo. Also, it is of utmost importance to keep your firearm dry, even if it is an AK or a Glock or whatever else environmentally tough firearm. Reputation is not an excuse for poor handling.

2] Don't live in a place like New Orleans. I know some people don't have a choice, but where I live there are some areas that can be chaotic too. I don't live in St. Petersburg for a reason. In Katrina, there's no excuse. If you're shtf-minded, you had plenty of time to get out. It is always better to leave, than to stay and deal with the SHTF.

3] If you are forced to live there, or you get caught in the inner city because you work there while the S is H'ingTF...the only choice here is to rely on your concealed carry firearm to "fight your way to a rifle"...that means, get the hell out of there. You're in escape mode. Get to your home or bug-in location. Hopefully, your car (if you can use it) has a long arm in it.

4] Obviously, the worst places are inner cities. They are full of gangs, thugs, opportunists, criminals and idiotic people who are not equipped physically or mentally for these situations. It goes without saying that these are always the centers of chaos and violence. That sphere of violence virtually disappears the moment you hit suburbia and rural areas. Thus, it is almost always contained in the dense center city.

5] For bugging out, keeping a low profile is a big concern for most people, so you don't want to look like you are armed. There's a couple of choices that comes to mind. For pistol, I highly advocate a high capacity pistol. There's no reason not to have the extra firepower. 9mm is prefered as you can get a 17+1 in the gun, and an extra mag making it 35 total rounds. 45acp would be next, but at best you're looking at 13+1, and another 13 for 27 total. The .45 while having more power than the 9mm, will weigh more, be larger, and offer less ammo regardless of how many mags you carry. If you staunchly believe that you don't need the extra 8-9 rounds because the stopping power is greater - more power to you brother, go for it. Glock has those 33rd magazines, a 17 in the gun and a long stick mag in a back pocket gives you 51 total rds.

Excellent choices would be a Glock, HK, XD, or Sig. Can't go wrong with any of these, but the Sig, HK and Glock are more proven. XD is a military arm in Croatia though...If you demand an all metal gun, Sig is it.


If long gun is a problem due to visibility, than the options would have to be SBR's or pistol caliber carbines. Folding stock is an absolute must. With the correct sling, and a folded stock, it could be slung behind the shoulder hanging down your side...an outer untucked shirt will conceal this pretty well. You don't need to be 100% concealed, just avoid getting easily picked out. If in winter, will be easier with a coat.

At the longer end of this would have to be an M1 Carbine. You can get high-capacity firepower, more power than a pistol, lightweight, and low recoil. One of those with the paratrooper stocks would be good. It isn't bulky either.

There are AR and AK pistols. I don't know if I'd trust an AR pistol, but the AK might be a decent option. These would be easier to hide due to short length.

There are pistol carbines like the Kel-Tec that fold up. That might be an option. Although, not quickly deployed - it is concealable within reason if you have a big shirt or jacket/coat.


SBR's are great idea, but they are expensive and there's a legal hassle. I don't think I'll ever go that route. I don't like the local police having a quick and easy register system telling them exactly where to go like they did in New Orleans. They went straight to some rich neighborhoods and cleaned out the classIII and SBR's.


If low profile is desired, pistol is hard to beat. It also depends on the chaos. The greater the chaos, the less fear you will have of being targeted by the police or having problems due to an exposed firearm. The less the chaos, the more difficult it is to travel with a firearm without society singling you out as the badguy.

6] No matter what, once the shooting starts -- all of the above goes out the window. Concealment is meaningless. So, if you believe that getting through a part of town during your bug out WILL result in a gunbattle, then..

a] you might need to consider temporarily bugging in somewhere in the city hidden till the violence dies down or until nightfall.

b] go another route.

If you are forced to, and you have a choice of arms -- get the most ammo, most firepower, more powerful weapon possible. That, by default, would indicate the situation is chaotic - so worrying about cops is moot. Even if confronted by semi-helpless police (like in N.O.) I'd ignore any of their orders and evade. I'm not going to be the one sucker in a city block of violence who will have his gun taken away. From my cold dead hands is correct! Sorry if people don't like to hear that, but officer goody-two-shoes should be trying to save himself not enforcing meaningless and impractical laws in the midst of pure chaos.


That being said, and I know this is a touchy subject that people don't like to think about..but sometimes, in some extreme situations, it could be possible that law-enforcement is part of the SHTF problem facing you. Your goal is to survive, not to be law-abiding and get rounded up in one part of town or to be denied access to evacuation routes because they are trying to contain the violence or chaos.


Back on topic. If you maintain an evasion mindset, where you're always moving, hiding, and you use your awareness and smarts to navigate safetly - you most likely will not need a rifle. A pistol will be enough to deter predators until you can evade. No one will chase you while taking gunfire. If you are trapped, no one is going to maintain a seige on you when taking gunfire. Gunfire tends to make people run and scatter like roaches when the lights get turned on.

 

[dragongoddess]

M1A2 Abrams Tank

 

[DutchmanDick]

How about a large-caliber airgun? Before you laugh, check out Barnes Pneumatics. Also, see the article on Austrian big-bore airguns at www.beemans.net. I recently built a .45 caliber air rifle based on the Austrian Girandoni design. A bit big to be concealable, but the magazine holds 22 .451 lead balls, and a full charge of air in the stock/air flask puts out enough force per shot to split chunks of 2X4. Relatively quiet, too, compared to a rifle, pistol, or shotgun (sounds a bit like a paintball gun). Biggest advantage, besides the low noise and large magazine capacity, is that even if it gets wet it still functions (wet lead balls still can be fired!), and not only that but it's harder to ban the ammo (they'd have to ban air first, and lead for casting balls is easy to come by - steal wheelweights if necessary). Also, airguns are not considered to be "firearms" under federal law (some states do classify them as such, though), so it's easier to obtain them. Just a thought...

 

[Gunsmoker]

I think in any type of SHTF scenario a revolver handgun is a must. No possibility of jamming. If the bullet doesn't fire from the pin, then just squeeze the trigger again. Even if the gun is dirty (no first hand experience, just observation) the revolver will fire. Less likely than a semi-auto to fail or break. Assuming you've used up all of your mags on your semi-auto, it is easier to reload a revolver than it is to reload a semi-auto.

If you have friends or family that have never fired guns, you can easily arm them with the revolver and teach them how to use it in literally 1 minute.

Now this would be in addition to a rifle, a semi-auto handgun, and a bullet resistant vest(most looters carry handguns instead of rifles.). The rifle would only stay in the house and possibly go with me if I had to move to another location (depending on what the cops are doing). If the cops are out patrolling the 'hood and confiscating anyone seen with a gun, then I wouldn't carry a rifle with me because if they see me with the rifle, they will also pat me down and get my handguns.

I also noticed a lot of homes in Katrina had this spray painted on the front of homes, "People with guns inside. Looters will be shot." I think this is probably one of the best defenses, unless of course everybody else had this on their homes.

 

[slicknickns]

By no means is a revolver easier to load. Great weapon though.

 

[Manedwolf]

Kel-Tec Sub-2000.

Folds down to 16", letting you have an Evil Black Rifle completely hidden in a regular backpack of emergency supplies or a first-aid kit case, whatever you like. I also think it'd work no matter how hard it was raining, it's sturdy.

And a long gun is ALWAYS more accurate than a pistol if you have looters shooting back at you.

 

[Cromlech]

I'm only half joking.

 

[GEM]

Which half? If you only have the right half - you won't be able to talk and give blood curdling threats to the angry mob.

With only the left half - you will talk but your spatial skills will be crappy and you will have bigger groups on the zombies.

Oh, and paralyzed on the opposite side.

However, if you cut your corpus callosum, each half of the brain can act independently and you could have a gun in each hand and shoot twice the number of zombies.

 

[Cromlech]

You actually made a rather sensible contribution, in response to my silliness.

 

[wingnutx]

e-tool.

Not only can you decapitate a foe with it, it also doubles as a toilet seat.

 

[Gunsmoker]

By no means is a revolver easier to load. Great weapon though.

You might have some crazy tactical training that allows you to refill your mag and reload your semi-auto faster than you can reload a revolver. But for most people, reloading a revolver is faster than taking out a mag, putting the gun between your armpit, filling the bullets one by one, and then putting the mag in and sliding the slide back.

 

[junyo]

You might have some crazy tactical training that allows you to refill your mag and reload your semi-auto faster than you can reload a revolver. But for most people, reloading a revolver is faster than taking out a mag, putting the gun between your armpit, filling the bullets one by one, and then putting the mag in and sliding the slide back.

Umm, I could be way out in left field here, and I often miss subtle nuance and humor, but I learned something from a guy who used to be in the Special Forces. You can preload the magazines. No really! That really speeds up the process.

 

[wingnutx]

Some people are crazy enough to keep several magazines loaded, just in case one isn't enough.

Me, I walk around with a cargo pocket full of loose rounds. It's more sporting that way.

 

[Gunsmoker]

Go back and read my original post #12. Read carefully... you'll notice some key words.

When you use all your mags, they don't automatically reload themselves. And don't say that you'll probably not go through all of your mags. We are talking about SHTF scenario.

 

[wingnutx]

If I burn through 10 30-round mags then I am in deep, deep doodoo.

 

[Gord]

But for most people, reloading a revolver is faster than taking out a mag, putting the gun between your armpit, filling the bullets one by one, and then putting the mag in and sliding the slide back.

By that logic, an NEF single-shot is better than an 870 because after the 870's empty, the NEF is faster to load.

You should have a speedloader or two for a revolver, and an extra mag or two for an auto. As the auto would usually be faster to reload and offer more rounds per magazine than the speedloaders, I give the advantage to the auto.

You could also simpy turn your own statement around and make an argument for autos based on "if you had no speedloaders left the mag change would be faster."

Revolver or auto, it doesn't matter - if you need to hand-reload during a fight you're already in a dire situation you probably should have had the foresight to avoid. I surely can't think of very many situations, even in a SHTF scenario, where one would need to expend 20-30 rounds, then reload instead of retreat.

 

[Manedwolf]

If you've used up all the rounds in your gun and there's bad guys still fighting back, you either have absolutely atrocious aim, or you're in what's called "combat".

Especially if you have more than one mag. If you've emptied several mags and still need more, that's a situation for calling in artillery...not something that's likely to happen in a SHTF situation.