Perspectives re:CCW

[John Joseph]

I'm curious about this. While I wouldn't bet any money on these suppositions, it might offer interesting discourse.
1) Other than physical considerations (stainless in sweaty climes, etc...) does your handgun's finish "transmit" anything to a perp, a bystander, or responding LEO? Commonly, a bright finish is thought to command attention faster than a blue or muted finish which may help a BG with attitude adjustment. OTOH a bright finish may trigger thoughts of Saturday Night Specials to a LEO.
What do you think?
2) Are LEOs more apt to look favorably at CCW holders who wear black, or black basket stamped leather holsters than brown or tan since most LEOs wear black basket stamped leather (probably more of a moot point with the popularity of plastic holsters now, but still interesting) This might be important considering how a responding officer discerns a situation, and considering that CCW holders have (although rarely) been shot and killed by an officer after an incident while "covering" a perp. Once again, what do you think?

 

[labnoti]

Not a totally unreasonable dilberation, but probably not one with a fruitful end. Fairbairn & Sykes considered a bright finish on the fighting knife to be a psychological advantage compared to a subdued finish. But as far as what the gun finish or style conveys to witnesses, I would suggest your race or ethnicity and your style of dress is far more significant. Let's face it, our society is racist, prejudiced and bigoted. If I was of an ethnicity that people with bias are more likely to associate with crime, there would probably be some safety in looking as much like the Harvard graduate student variety than one from the ghetto.

Regardless of race or ethnicity, there is probably a measure of security in well-to-do appearance. In a violent altercation, people are more suspicious of someone who looks like they might be the desperate party. I don't think projecting great wealth is meaningful, just try not to look like a street person. Clean clothes, chinos, new shoes, a tucked-in shirt, and a sport jacket is going to be better off than dirty white shoes, sweat pants, and a basketball jersey.

But I would hope your actions are going to be by far more important than your appearance.

 

[Dunross]

In low-light situations weapons with bright finishes are easier to see which may or may not be a good thing depending on the circumstances of the moment. It may make the aggressor realize they've made a mistake faster than it would with a finish that made the piece harder to see. On the other hand the increased visibility may work against you if concealment is a concern even once the weapon has been drawn.

I don't think the holster would make much of a difference one way or the other so long long as you actually use one. Carrying the piece unholstered inside your waistband or just stuck in a pocket doesn't look good in my mind, but others may feel differently.

 

[milemaker13]

But as far as what the gun finish or style conveys to witnesses, I would suggest your race or ethnicity and your style of dress is far more significant. Let's face it, our society is racist, prejudiced and bigoted. If I was of an ethnicity that people with bias are more likely to associate with crime, there would probably be some safety in looking as much like the Harvard graduate student variety than one from the ghetto.

This is BS. I hate that people scream racist if you think a person dressed like a thug is a thug. Dress, speak and act like a violent criminal and you will likely be treated like one no matter what color you are.

 

[John Joseph]

The gun leather issue would probably deal with the chances of being "outed" as I've noticed plain clothes LEOs don't appear too concerned over their weapons being revealed in public, although they often have a flat badge displayed on their belts near the pistol--but not always. Perhaps naively I assume the person is a LEO just because the leather is black basket stamped.
Would black leather be of any advantage to a CCW holder should their holster be observed if say, the concealing garment is compromised by a chair or other obstacle? Does black leather tend to say "nothing to see here, go about your business" to the general public?

 

[jar]

Fairbairn & Sykes considered a bright finish on the fighting knife to be a psychological advantage compared to a subdued finish.

I always thought that strange since their main point stressed repeatedly is that it's best to attack and finish before the other guy even knew you were there.

 

[roscoe]

This is BS. I hate that people scream racist if you think a person dressed like a thug is a thug. Dress, speak and act like a violent criminal and you will likely be treated like one no matter what color you are.

This rankles me a bit. In the USA you have the right to dress however you want. It shouldn't have any effect on how you are treated by anybody, really, unless you are looking for a job. My clothing ranges from a jacket and tie to holed jeans and paint-splattered shirt, depending on that day's duties. I expect to be treated by paid peace officers with respect no matter what my attire. It probably doesn't matter in my case, as a middle-aged white man, but it is a simple fact that it does, in some cases, best intentions aside. (And I do honestly believe they generally have the best intentions - few people really want to be racist, but it can be hard to overcome our deepest biases. As a side note this goes for minority officers as well, who generally respond in the same statistical pattern as white officers, and probably share the same biases.):
http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2007/06/police-officers.aspx

But, in all reality, your clothing probably does have an unconscious effect on an officer's interpretation of the scene, since they are wondering who is the criminal and who is the victim, and in most cases, well-dressed people have less financial motivation to be involved in street crime. Domestic crimes are another matter.

I certainly don't see how the color of your holster could possibly come unto play. If there is a law enforcement officer arriving on the scene you should put your weapon on the ground and stand back with arms raised (you won't catch me dropping mine on concrete). With all the adrenaline surging through the officer's bloodstream you just want to make them feel that you are no threat. Talking probably does no good - adrenaline produces auditory exclusion, not to mention scrambles the brain. It is a cool-headed officer who can do more than just follow their training and think on their feet under that immediate surge of fear. Just remain calm, follow instructions, and don't make them feel threatened. (Can you tell I have some experience here?)

And anyway, a true gentleman matches his holster leather to his shoes. That is a far greater concern than the constabulary's reaction.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I'm curious about this. While I wouldn't bet any money on these suppositions, it might offer interesting discourse.
1) Other than physical considerations (stainless in sweaty climes, etc...) does your handgun's finish "transmit" anything to a perp, a bystander, or responding LEO? Commonly, a bright finish is thought to command attention faster than a blue or muted finish which may help a BG with attitude adjustment. OTOH a bright finish may trigger thoughts of Saturday Night Specials to a LEO.
What do you think?
2) Are LEOs more apt to look favorably at CCW holders who wear black, or black basket stamped leather holsters than brown or tan since most LEOs wear black basket stamped leather (probably more of a moot point with the popularity of plastic holsters now, but still interesting) This might be important considering how a responding officer discerns a situation, and considering that CCW holders have (although rarely) been shot and killed by an officer after an incident while "covering" a perp. Once again, what do you think?

After careful consideration, and a desire to articulately explain my reasoning, I will respond with the following.

No

 

[Armored farmer]

An interesting concept.
Right or wrong, i know i tend to form opinions when i see an overweight 20 or 30something wandering they isles of a store in their dirty PJ's at 1130am on a thursday.

Dirty work clothes are an entirely different thing.

I dont think the make and model of the gun or holster will make as much impact as personal appearance might.

 

[Old Dog]

1) Other than physical considerations (stainless in sweaty climes, etc...) does your handgun's finish "transmit" anything to a perp, a bystander, or responding LEO? Commonly, a bright finish is thought to command attention faster than a blue or muted finish which may help a BG with attitude adjustment. OTOH a bright finish may trigger thoughts of Saturday Night Specials to a LEO.

Ah ... no. If a gun is recognizable as a gun, a bad guy's attention generally is commanded regardless [ponder for a moment, if you will, the ubiquitous use of the Glock in both the criminal and law enforcement cultures].

And you do know that most law enforcement officers are quite aware that many handguns, not just the cheap ones, are produced with "a bright finish?" Also, I can tell you that the term "Saturday Night Special" is not widely used in law enforcement circles these days. It's only the few older guys who're still on the job who've even heard the term.

Are LEOs more apt to look favorably at CCW holders who wear black, or black basket stamped leather holsters than brown or tan since most LEOs wear black basket stamped leather (probably more of a moot point with the popularity of plastic holsters now, but still interesting) This might be important considering how a responding officer discerns a situation, and considering that CCW holders have (although rarely) been shot and killed by an officer after an incident while "covering" a perp.

Brown and tan gunleather was once quite common in law enforcement and is still worn with pride by some rural PDs and SOs, and still a couple state police agencies.

It's generally the fact that one is actually wearing a holster that sets the good guy apart from the bad guy, as most criminals don't avail themselves of the holster option.

But I would hope your actions are going to be by far more important than your appearance.

Yes, one can always hope. But in our society, perception is reality, so sadly, most are instantly judged based upon their appearance.

 

[TomJ]

I'm curious about this. While I wouldn't bet any money on these suppositions, it might offer interesting discourse.

2) Are LEOs more apt to look favorably at CCW holders who wear black, or black basket stamped leather holsters than brown or tan since most LEOs wear black basket stamped leather (probably more of a moot point with the popularity of plastic holsters now, but still interesting) This might be important considering how a responding officer discerns a situation, and considering that CCW holders have (although rarely) been shot and killed by an officer after an incident while "covering" a perp. Once again, what do you think?

I was a LEO, and the color of someone's holster has absolutely nothing with the way LEO's perceive individuals. I judged people by their behavior when I arrived on the scene .

Let's face it, our society is racist, prejudiced and bigoted. .

I don't know a tactful way to say this, but this is the most ignorant thing I've read on this website. Of course there are some people in every racial and ethnic group who are prejudice, but to make the sweeping statement that our society is racist, prejudiced and bigoted is nonsense.

 

[rskent]

This might be important considering how a responding officer discerns a situation, and considering that CCW holders have (although rarely) been shot and killed by an officer after an incident while "covering" a perp. Once again, what do you think?

I think “there’s your problem, right there”. If you don’t want to get shot by the police don’t be pointing a gun at someone when they come up on you. Why would you “detain” someone at gun point if you are not police?

 

[rskent]

But I would hope your actions are going to be by far more important than your appearance.

Yes, one can always hope. But in our society, perception is reality, so sadly, most are instantly judged based upon their appearance.

Bull crap. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, talks like a duck, it’s a duck.

If you want to dress like a criminal, act like a criminal, talk like a criminal, you should expect to be treated like a criminal.

 

[JR24]

This rankles me a bit. In the USA you have the right to dress however you want. It shouldn't have any effect on how you are treated by anybody, really, unless you are looking for a job

While you may believe this, the fact is you choose how you present yourself when you dress. I dont understand how people are not supposed to perceive you on the image you choose to project. For the majority of people that is the point on choosing their daily dress, whether they want to admit it or not.

Legally, police should actually treat you no different, but to expect them not to understand the visual cues you are projecting is unreasonable, IMO.

I do understand that some cannot afford to dress "nice" and all, but I am more referring to those who have a choice.

 

[Old Dog]

Bull crap. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, talks like a duck, it’s a duck.

Didn't raise any kids through their teens or college years, eh? I was pretty alarmed at all the middle-class suburban kids my children knew, had regular contact with or associated with during their teen and college years -- they all dressed as urban punk thugs with baggy, sagging pants, ridiculous oversize shirts, backwards/sideway cap with flat brim, used the urban slang of the day replete with hand gestures and stupid sayings ... oldest daughter hung out with some that looked like stoner hippies or Cuban revolutionaries ... but most of these kids were not criminals, gangbangers, anarchists, urban terrorists or other types of scum -- simply confused kids trying to find their way.

Probably should dismount your high horse.

 

[rskent]

This rankles me a bit. In the USA you have the right to dress however you want. It shouldn't have any effect on how you are treated by anybody, really, unless you are looking for a job.

You have the right. But you have to understand that exercising you right may have consequences. If you chose to dress like a clown you should expect to be treated like a clown.

 

[rskent]

Probably should dismount your high horse.

Don’t mean to be on a high horse. I’m sorry you are taking me that way.

When I was about 20 something. I was setting in my Grandpa’s back yard complaining about getting pulled over on the way there. And complaining about always getting hassled by the cops. Couldn’t seem to go anywhere without getting pulled over. That’s when he told me it was my fault. He said I looked like a hoodlum (his word). When the police looked at me they saw a hoodlum. They didn’t know me, all they knew was what they saw, a hoodlum. At first, I thought he was full of it, but after a while I started thinking about it. Trimmed the hair, shaved the beard, lost the black leather jacket. Toned down the mufflers on the old sportster a bit.

In short, Grandpa was right.

 

[.308 Norma]

Does black leather tend to say "nothing to see here, go about your business" to the general public?

Naw, I don't think so. But I've been wrong a lot more times than I've been right about how other people think.

 

[RETG]

When I worked and carried a gun 24/7, I had a brown holster for brown belts, and a black holster for black belts. Now that I am retired, I have a black holster for my black P30SK (EDC) and a black and brown holster for my Beretta PX4 INOX (used for hiking in the National Forests/Parks and BLM lands) and I guess, thinking about it, I rotate them. No preference due to belt color (could be cause I only wear jeans and always very casual.

 

[WrongHanded]

I don't know how much gun finish and holster color effect the perspective of a LEO. But I'd think it could well effect the perspective of a jury. Names too. The Sig 'Nightmare' finish being a prime example of emotive language.

 

[Varminterror]

What do you think?

I think you are overthinking this.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

How is anyone getting a perspective on your gun/holster if you're CC?

 

[John Joseph]

Excellent point about having a holster.

The issue of covering a wounded attacker until the police arrive is less compelling. If you're not a cop and not trained for this, would it be wise to search a wounded perp for other weapons to make certain he couldn't resume the attack?
Or do you advocate shooting a wounded person who appears to have given up to make certain they can't flee, counter attack, or ?
Or do you disarm yourself and wait for the police to show up trusting the perp doesn't have another weapon?

 

[FL-NC]

The guns I carry are either Glocks or S&W shield. Since those 2 pistols are the basic design and make of almost all LE in the US, I don't see as how they would view either as "gangsterish", as they might for something like a hi-point, or something nickel-plated with weird grips, engraving, etc. As for a holster, or lack thereof, to me, someone with a gun of any type shoved into their pants, or in some $5 nylon piece of flea market garbage screams "amateur", whereas a decent, properly fitted kydex or leather holster tells me a different story. But that's just me.

 

[JR24]

Excellent point about having a holster.

The issue of covering a wounded attacker until the police arrive is less compelling. If you're not a cop and not trained for this, would it be wise to search a wounded perp for other weapons to make certain he couldn't resume the attack?
Or do you advocate shooting a wounded person who appears to have given up to make certain they can't flee, counter attack, or ?
Or do you disarm yourself and wait for the police to show up trusting the perp doesn't have another weapon?

Most classes I've been in say get yourself to safety then call it in from there, unarmed or at least holstered at that point.