PF-9

[gym]

I have defended these pistols since they came out, offering advise help etc whenever possible. I find that after e-thinking this, along with my own experiences with the gun, I can no longer consider this an acceptable weapon for anything but teaching students on what not to do when making a firearm.
As we all know, the Ktog forum, has more "fixes" for more "problems" than any other gun I have ever seen.
Mine functioned the 2 or 3 times I fired it with 115 remington JHP's.
Last time out I was shooting 3 different 9's and got the ammo mixed up. The gun was useless. I know someone will say "you can't shoot 147 grain rounds in some of them I didn't realize that I did that at the time, but after inspection, I saw it. I put back the 115's and it ran a mag and FTF' again. did a tap slap, it fired. I took it home and looked at it carefully. I had by the way radiused, beveled the side of the mag so it didn't have to be put in using the mag release each time, "it's on their forum". That had nothing to do with it, the hammer block is actually in the way of the feeding ramp. on the very edge, which throws off the angle that the mag enters the well.
That's enough with this thing already, stay away, 5 years and it's something different every time. I have a lot of guns and this is the only one that they made this poorlly, thank goodness I have no other Kel-tecs. Most shooter say 'well what did you expect"? I guess I expected a gun that was engineered before it went into production, not something that you throw out there and let the shooting community fix fo you.
If you are carrying this as a primary, "i never did", DONT, if it's for screwing around, that's fine. Or if you just like to fix things. But if you are leo and this is your Bug, even if you never had a problem with it, "i hadn't", it can stop at any moment. If it dosen't like the ammo, or the hammer block hit's the rim or whatever, it ain't worth your life playing with this ,"do it yourself" pistol.
People buy them because they are small, and cheap. I would pay another hundred for one that was better thought out.
Now I feel that if they did it with this gun, I can never in good faith own a Keltec again.
In comparison my ruger is a work of art, and my glocks the Mona Lisa. This is Andy warhol. And that's beng nice, I would stay away from that new shotgun also, it looks like it's going to be a problem just from looking at the prototypes and drawings.I think their 380 and the first one in 9, the p11, were better thought out, as we know ruger copied the little one, but I have seen 3 firing pins snap at the range with the p11's and that's enough, plus you can't dry fir the gun unless you use snap caps. I use a pencil with an erasor, but I'm done with it. My time is worth more than that bean shooter.

 

[NMGonzo]

I had a pf-9

I have a cz

 

[dtsdave]

I had one too.

I now have a Kahr PM9.

 

[Rule3]

I have a PM9 also. It had it's share of problems in the beginning and not just let it breaking for 200 rounds. I have had it and shot it long enough now to trust it.

Now the PM 45 is whole different story! Most expensive piece of junk I ever bought.

So even expensive ones have problems.

That being said, I went through the KT PF 9 trials also. Slide would not lock back, franken bolt came out which messed up the FP and spring.

It went back to the dealer.

I wonder how the Diamondback 9 is doing???

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I've got a PF-9. It's been fine. I've had a Kahr P9. It was fine, too.

I've had a P-11, a P3AT, two Sub-2000s (still have one in .40), and a PF-9. They've all been good, and never had to go back to the factory. I may soon get their new .22 magnum auto -- for my wife. She wants to shoot, and that gun has very little recoi All have been trouble-free and reliable.

(I didn't care for the P-11, because I could not really adapt to the long trigger pull. That wasn't a gun problem. I got rid of the P3AT (because the trigger guard did a job on my trigger finger when I fired, while the similar Ruger LCP didn't. I decided that both of them (the .380s) weren't enough gun, and went to the P9 and, later, the PF9.

I like the K-T guns but don't always enjoy shooting them. (I'd still have the P9, but someone offered me too much money, and I took his offer.) The KTADDONs grip materials helped with both the P3AT (and the LCP), and the PF9 -- money well spent.

The Kel-Tecs (and other small guns, like the Kahrs) seem to be troublesome. Years ago it was probably quality control in the Kel-Tec factories, but that seem to seldom be the case, nowadays.

Some of it is clearly LIMP-WRISTING by the shooters. But not all of it.

I'm beginning to think that some folks just can't shoot these small guns. It's not bad technique, or bad guns, but just a bad fit between the gun's design and how their bodies are made or work. And the problem isn't limited to Kel-Tec guns -- it seems to be an issue with a bunch of the small ones, regardless of who makes them.

That's certainly the case with one acquaintance who bought a P3AT and simply couldn't hit the broad side of the barn with it. When he tried mine, he couldn't hit the broad side of the barn with IT, either -- and I took it, reloaded it, and shot a small group at about 20". He's generally a better shot than I am, so it wasn't the fact that he wasn't good with handguns.

If you've got a PF-9 and you can't make it run, sell it and try something else.

 

[chhodge69]

I own one and like it but I cannot recommend them to new shooters. I think Kel-Tec does themselves a disservice by failing to fluff-n-buff their own products. I've found that other gun nvts like myself tend to appreciate well built machines as art. Kel-Tec *could* be good but the obvious cost-saving shortcuts will ultimately turn off their customers.

 

[possum]

I have owned kahr, I no longer do. I have no issues with my PF-9.

 

[Browns Fan]

My pf9 does everything I want it to:
1. It shoots all variety of ammo I have tried. I have not had a failure of any kind. In all fairness, I have not tried 147gr.
2. It shoots very well in BUG matches.
3. It is a little big for pocket carry, but I manage. It goes with me whenever my glock 19 is not practical.

I couldnt ask for more of any gun, regardless of price. Some will say it wont win any beauty contests, but *shrug*, that's not what I bought it for.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Kel-Tec *could* be good but the obvious cost-saving shortcuts will ultimately turn off their customers.

A bunch of us have been saying that for at least 15 years -- and they're probably selling more guns NOW than they've ever sold. (?)

There seem to be fewer problems with their newer guns than with the older ones, and they've withdrawn some (like the P-40) that were actually fine, but people couldn't shoot... But I agree with you on one of your points: K-Ts are not guns for new handgun shooters, but because of the size and price, that is often who buys them.

I've had several Kel-Tecs and have never had a problem with the GUNS; I've had a number of problems with how the guns and I fit together. <grin>

On the other hand, I had one of the early Beretta Tomcats (.32 acp) and it spent at least 6 months at Beretta during my first year of ownership, getting itself fixed. I also broke several firing pins, even though I was using a snap cap when dry-firing. (Dry-firing was just about the only way to improve the trigger, as many gunsmiths wouldn't work on them -- too damned small.)

Beretta eventually replaced that first problem gun with a new gun, but it really wasn't a lot better; it had different problems. (I actually had the slide kick off the rails during one range session, and I had to use a rubber mallet to drive it back into the proper position. No damage to the slide or frame, but much damage to my confidence in the gun.)

I never had that sort of problem with any other gun. I understand that all of the Tomcat problems have been worked out, but those guns weren't cheap, nor were they cheaply made. I won't say all Berettas are crap, but I won't get another Tomcat, either.

 

[chhodge69]

and they're probably selling more guns NOW than they've ever sold

And they might sell even more if they could consistently earn repeat business. KT PF-9 was my first carry gun, bought in ignorance and with no regrets. I've bought many guns since and none were KT. I'm not a hater - I want to like them - made in the USA and all... they can do better IMO but I guess they found their niche.

 

[gpr]

still got my p40...want to buy it...

 

[MedWheeler]

People have been saying this for years, and ten times as many have been happy with their KT products. I don't think your rant-filled post is going to turn any PF-9s out of the holsters in which they're riding. Sorry about your luck.

 

[Rontherunner]

No doubt some PF9 have issues, just like any other gun. Sorry the OP has had a bad experience. But mine has been reliable and is trustable.

 

[gym]

Med, my post was far from rant filled,It was factual, I have been carrying for 37 years, everything from baby brownings in the 60's to seacamps in the 90's, It's a stament of fact. For a company to have a forum with the sole priority to fix their guns, then something is wrong. My life is aparantlly more important to me than yours is to you. The gun is made like crap. It is possible to shoot it for lshort periods of time, but something will go wrong with it and it will happen fast.I have had over a hundred pistols and only 2 were crap. This is one. I can give you a list of things that are out of spec on the gun, but since you think this is a rant I won't be bothered. It's an accident waiting to happen, go an google 147 grain ammo and pf 9's. then come back and tell me that makes sense. I was a mechanical engineer during Nam I worked on choppers jets, and weapons systems, anyone with a basic knowledge of mechanics will tell you it's an un finished piece of junk, and if you don't have the intelligence to see the failure rate, then there is no use speaking to someone who cares so little about their life. To me it was always only a bug, but I won't even use it for anything more than a doorstop.
The problem is that it's all a lot of people who will never "thank god" have to use it, can afford.
If you are going to sell guns to the public, you should explain first that ,"by the way it may not feed this ammo or that ammo,some do some don't. That's basically what it says on their forum.
I had an employee from Kel-Tek tell me they were crap, so you go enjoy yours, just hope you never have to need it.

They insist their employees compete with their weapons, 3 gun etc. This guy was pissed off that he had to use their "new shotgun", that they still can't get to work, and the PMR, he wouldn't consider the pf9.There are people here who shoot guns and there are shooters, a shooter isn't ever going to use a kel-tec as a primary, and latelly not even a back up.I would be remiss giving this gun to anyone I know, knowing what can happen to it.You don't get a gun for 200 dollars "cdnn" and bet your life on it.Once you go over 115 grains with that gun , you compromise the weapon. That isn't something i can live with, now you got the rant you didn't get before. Buy a ruger lcp it's a better gun the tolerences are tighter, and the feed ramp is designed to make it very hard to get a mis feed, Since 380 and 9mm are the same diameter, at close range, I prefer a gun that has 500 rounds through it without a hickup. Golden sabres, ball, stubby white box, get it. My 26 fires 100 grain powerball, and my lcp fires 102 gran sabres. Do you really think at 5-10 feet it makes a difference. Not if you shoot well. I survived 3 gunfights with 38's and PPk's , they were well made guns. Inside and out. A sig 232 is something you might wish to carry as a primary or a secondary. Shooting has grown into a hobby, not the hobby it once was, with people shooting themselves, and putting embarassing videos on utube, but that's progress.My neighboors know I will go with them any time to just improve their shooting, but you must have the proper equiptment for any activity you engage in.This too shall pass.if shot like that as a kid I would have taken up basketweaving.
Guysit's not a bowling ball, you can't have a "badexperience" with a pistol, unless you are lucky enough to be one of thos people that nothing ever happens to. I know guys on the job who pulled their 20 and never pulled their gun.
Unfortunatlly that's not the mentality for carrying a handgun, you want the most reliable most accurate gun that you can afford, you want to feel that it can be drawn at any time in any circumstance and it's going to do what it was meant to do. You hope that never happens, but this is not the summer sale at macys, you pay up for the best because your life and those you love are counting on you.Th best is different for many, but we have a group of guns that fall into that catagory, deoending on your taste. A good 1911 in commander or fullsize, a glock 19 26 or 30, small but goes bang every time, a Sig, and H&K, Seacamp if you want small, or Rorenbach. the extra few hundred will save your life

 

[bigmike45]

I am the happy owner of 4 different KetTec firearms. I started with the P11 and then the PF9 the year they hit the shelves. I regularly practice drawing from my pocket holster and firing 3 rounds until the mag is empty. Mine also does not like the 147gr fodder but will shoot any 115 & 124gr I load in it. Ihave never had to "Fluff & Buff" mine and won't so long as it keeps shooting. I had a buddy who sent his back to KT and his will shoot anything, which was his original complaint. I do carry mine as a primary when I can't carry my Wilson Combat Professional and the PF9 as a BUG. Good guns at reasonable prices and made in America!!!!!

My 4 KelTecs are:
P11
PF9
PMR30 &
RFB

 

[Zerodefect]

I've had good luck with Keltec reliability. I'm no fan of the long DAO trigger, but they work fine for me.

Someone I shoot with shoots a P11 regularly. Never cleans it, abuses the heck out of it. Actually shot the thing until it literally siezed up with carbon. But it was reliable up until that point. Now that he actually maintains it, replaced all the springs, it runs great. Not really supposed to be a 10,000 round type pistol, but that's what he has through it.

I can't wait for the shotgun to come out. If you don't buy one, then that's good for me. Lower prices, sooner for me then. As soon as they drop to $600 I'm buying 2.

 

[Southern Rebel]

Oh, I know the feeling. I bought my son an HK pistol - darned thing broke the first time he went to the range. All HK's are bad news. I bought myself a SIG mosquito - have never had ANY problem with it - they are the best .22 ever made!

Point being made - one or two owners' experiences with certain guns do not make for an intensive quality-controlled testing. Neither does the evaluation given by ONE employee of a company. Opinions are like elbows and other unrelated parts - just opinions.

It would not surprise me that there would statistically be a few more problems with less-expensive guns than guns with high sales prices. Within my shooting group, however, there are about 20 or so Kel-tecs and none of us have had any problems (other than WWB ammo - some PF-9s don't like it) with any of their products. It doesn't prove they are perfect and your experience doesn't prove they are unreliable.

 

[GBExpat]

... you want to feel that it can be drawn at any time in any circumstance and it's going to do what it was meant to do ...

Agreed ... and that describes my experience with my PF-9, I am sorry to hear that yours was different.

If, in future, I experience a problem with this pistol, I will not hesitate to immediately transition to another carry pistol until such time as I can convince myself that the problem is permanently corrected.

Actually, because of your post, I will be making a closer inspection of the pistol next time I have it apart on the bench.

I purchased it several months after the PF-9s became available, have carried it almost every day since (DiSantis Nemesis holster, right-rear pocket of my 501s ... very comfortable ... I often forget that it is there) and never had any issues with it while practicing on my backyard shooting range.

OT ... you mentioned 37 years of concealed carry and that got me to wondering ... so I checked my files and my first permit was issued 14Apr75, 36+ years ago ... and now I am, once again, feeling o-o-o-old.

 

[hardluk1]

I had a pf-9 that I carried for 2 1/2 years and had not a single falure of any kind. Now I never shot 1147gr but shot maost all brands of 115gr and 124gr ammo ,flj and hp. Just ran 100%. I do the same thing to it i do with any pistol. Take it apart and clean check smooth any thing that looks like it might need it and oil and lub what need to be.

I sold it after buying a used kahr cw9 cheaply that the original owner had some problems with. I can't find any problems ,gun just works fine. I liked it enough I then bought a cm 9 for pocket carry. I ran my first 400 rounds of practice ammo and 200 rounds a geogia arms HP ammo both +P and stadard ammo also with no problems. I have to say the pf-9 chambers working the slide by hand better but the kahrs are easier to control with a bit better trigger and go bang every time, just like my pf-9 KT did . I do wish I had kept the KT.

All companies have issues and some people seem to just have better luck than others with light weight pistols. Many people don't realize that KT builds and sold 4 million firearms last year. That 3rd highest in our country from a company with a smaller choice of firearms to pick from. The people on these site are just the few among all firearm owners.

 

[gym]

If you notice on the ktog site, there were differebt runs of these guns. Many times parts were redesigned, it also may be that some have the old parts that had problems and some the new parts. If I werer to guess, I would say that a new one bought in the last 2 years, has the improvements, perhaps they should just put up a site with what the gun should have changed. They have rediesigned most every original part. 1. Some early barrels had SHORT THROATS that would not chamber the longer 147 grain ammo:

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/Ya...42;start=15#22

2. They tried to use the same screw for the sight as for the extractor. But when the screw was tightened during production this caused it to intrude into the hammer arc which caused:
3. HAMMER PEENING from hitting the screw, which caused:
4. HAMMER SLIDE SCORING, which caused additional wear to the hammer which then caused more hammer slide scoring etc. which caused
5. A PLETHORA OF FINE BRASS DUST from the cartridges being shaved by the rough hammer slide.
6. The FIRING PIN CHANNEL in the slide was TOO LARGE and allowed the FP to wobble around and strike the primer crookedly.

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/Ya...num=1160704326

This resulted in:
7. LIGHT PRIMER STRIKES and FAIL TO FIRES. The large hole also quickly attracted brass shavings from the:
8. SLIDE LOCK TAB TOO LARGE that rubbed against the bullet noses and piled up shavings. This also caused:

Continued next post
Here are some things I found on a quick search,


Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 7,639 A SHORT HISTORY (SO FAR) OF THE PF9

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

9. FTS, (Fail To Something) a weird kind of FTFeed that locked open the breech with the cartridge nose trapped under the Slide stop tab.

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/Ya...num=1160796460

10. It also had problems with the first 3 rounds in the magazine tending to NOSE DIVE INTO THE FEED RAMP.

11. The MAGAZINE follower is a soft material and quickly developed a GOUGE caused by the last round flipping end for end and smacking its rim into the top of the follower.

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/Ya...num=1161319620

12. The SLIDE was NOT PROPERLY HARDENED. This caused slide bending which gradually caused:

13 BARREL AND BREECH PEENING and:

14. LIGHT STRIKES from slide not closing into battery.

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/Ya...num=1161379502

15. Many SLIDES also CRACKED at the slide stop *notch.

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/Ya...num=1162303854

16. Many of the *grip accessory rails were *not straight--They tended to droop down.

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/Ya...26;start=90#92

* The PF9 magazines, for whatever reason, appear not to be made by MecGar. (Rumor has it that MecGar was too busy with a government contract.)

* The PF9 magazine followers are a soft plastic that dents easily and the sharper slide lock tabs tend to dig holes in them.

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/Ya...num=1161319620

*These mags also apparently have sharper edges in the mag catch area and tend to wear mag catches quickly if the catch is not depressed during mag insertion.

B MODELS:

* All who returned their dull blued A models received back brand new Parkerized B models with their old serial number stamped thereon.

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/Ya...num=1163440316

* Almost all of the A model problems were corrected in the B model. Mine is still flawless after 600 rounds.

* The original first owners, the PIONEERS who bought the early A and B models are listed HERE:

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/Ya...2400;start=0#0

C MODELS:

* Production of A Models was halted 10/06 while KT sorted out the slide hardening problems. When production resumed at about SN 100,

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/Ya...0379;start=0#0

The brightly blued C model was born. This gun may still have some problems:

1. Starting after 200-400 rounds: OCASIONAL FTLoads due to cartridges NOSE DIVING INTO FEED RAMPs
2. EJECTORS that BREAK AFTER 200-700 rounds.
3. ASSEMBLY PINS that LOSE THEIR HEADS unexpectedly.
4. The SLIDE LOCK TAB has been changed several times and may be so sharp now, that it CUTS A HOLE into the mag follower:http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/Ya...num=1170549117

5. DISCOLORED SLIDES where super-hardened areas did not blue well.

* On 01/17/07 KT announced full production of the PF9. *Full production probably means 700-1000 per week or more. IMO, delivery of C models was halted just a few days later while they searched for a hollowpoint feeding solution--Which was a completely new barrel with longer feed ramp.

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/Ya...196547;start=0

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/Ya...num=1172087086

* Apparently a decision was made by KT to resume PF-9 C model production, or maybe to just release those that were already produced before the freeze, in 2/07. These SN R0AXX to R0FXX C Models do NOT have the new barrels.

If YOU own a PF9 and are NOT on either the A, B, C, or later list, Please post here:

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/Ya...num=1173985818

with your PF9 SN, (x out the last digit) date purchased, Dealer name and address, location and price before tax so I can add you to the list.

* The list of known KTOG A, B C, D and *E Models) is HERE:

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/Ya...234817;start=0

D MODELS:

D Models are A, B, or C models that have been returned to the factory for new, longer barrels--And probably new slides as well.

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/Ya...087086;start=0

I imagine the A or B models will be upgraded to C parts and converted to D Models.

* lbbennett is the first confirmed KTOGer to receive a new D model. She returned her PF-9 *to her FFL *on 03/02/07. The BBT brought it back to her on 03/21/07. Congrats, Laura!

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/Ya...86;start=30#44

E MODELS:

UPDATE: As of 5/22 there have been 6 reports of PF9 problems with trigger going slack. It is caused by the trigger spring popping out of the trigger bar groove. So far--No definitive cause.

Possible KTOG solutions--And the ultimate Kel-Tec problem resolution are Here:

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/Ya...=1176553013#10

Continued next post.

I stopped here it goes on forever. I never saw this bfore for any other gun. Courtesy of the ktog forum, it goes on forever, good gun huh.

 

[wnycollector]

I owned a PF-9 for a year. I REALLY wanted to like the gun since it carried so well. The first 300 rounds I put through the gun were almost problem free. I initially induced a few problems with bad technique during rapid fire (e.g. thumb brushing slide or thumb hitts mag release) or lack of cleaning between range sessions but once I got the feel of the pistol and REALLY cleaned it between sessions, I would still get one or two FTE's/range session. I sent it back to KT, switched to different factory mags, but the FTE's still kept dogging me. I could just never feel 100% comfortable carrying the PF-9. After a while, I used the gun as part of a trade for an AR upper.

My warm weather carry is now a Beretta 84B. It is wider and heavier than the PF-9 but it carries easily IWB, has a 13+1 capacity and is 100% reliable. I also picked up a NAA .22 mag mini revolver for those times when I cant carry IWB and must pocket carry.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

switched to different factory mags, but the FTE's still kept dogging me.

By FTE do you mean fail to extract or eject? If so, it's VERY UNLIKELY that's a magazine-related issue. Could be a crappy extractor (broken claw), crappy ammo (some WWB won't extract right in some guns), etc.

FTFs (failures to feed) could be mag-related. If that's what you meant, you were possibly on the right track.

That said -- I like and have had good experience with Kel-Tecs -- but if you've lost confidence, you did what you had to do.

 

[wnycollector]

By FTE do you mean

The problems fell into two categories failure to eject which let to stovepipes and an occasional failure to feed. The FTEs occurred ~75% of the time and the FTF's ~25%.

if you've lost confidence, you did what you had to do.

That's what it boiled down to for me. I still have my KT Sub2K and I'm looking to add a SU16 to my collection, but PF-9 was just not for me.

 

[gym]

There is a section about beveling the rt side of the mag, "not the lips" to avoid having to press the mag release button or hit the mag, I have tried this and it works. You can't remove actual length just bevel the angle,To allow it to slip into position easier, constatlly slamming the base will cause a mag to "fall out" if you continue to do that, @ minutes with a a polishing wheel made the mag fit. But this had nothing to do with reliability isues, I had to put some of that up because some folks just were unaware of the amount of problems from day 1. Having worked in a machine shop as many here have, you know if you don't get the initial product out in a perfectlly funtioning state. You will just be plugging holes forever. I believe that is wht happened here. As I said I used to argue "for" these guns for years, but having seen how they can suddenlly just stop working I must make it as clear as possible to my fellow members that this can happen without warning to your gun when you need it. There is an 8 week backup to get your gun fixed, so something isn't right. Either they have 1 guy fixing all the guns, or there are an awful lot of guns coming back to fix, and it's on your dime.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Stovepipes and failures to extract are typically EXTRACTOR-related problems. I'm surprised the trip back to KT didn't solve the problem.

But LIMP-WRISTING can cause that, too. That may not have been the cause if you had hundreds of rounds without the problem appearing.

Might've been a bad extractor -- weak or chipped.