Pig-in-a-poke Martini-Henry Carbine

[GCBurner]

Ever since I first saw the movie Zulu, I've had a kind of hankering for a Martini-Henry .577 rifle. At Saturday's Collectors Gunshow here, I was on my way out the door when I spotted a guy closing up his table with a lonely Martini-Henry carbine sitting on it. It was marked .577-450 on the tag, but the bore is clearly smaller, I believe it's a .450-577 conversion. The receiver has the royal crown and V.R. marking, stamped Enfield 1877. It's got interesting stamps, "Broad Arrows" and proof marks all over it, including an "S X" on the top of the receiver, which I beleive means "Strengthened Extractor". There's a faint regimental stamp in the wood of the buttstock, and also a brass disk stamped "R.I.C.", for Royal Irish Constabulary. I'm not sure if it was originally made as a carbine, or was cut down from a Model 1877 rifle for constabulary use. The stock is all original finish, with the usual dings of a military rifle, but all the finish is worn off the metal, except for the bluing on the breechblock. The barrel still shows strong, sharp rifling, but there is a saw cut at the breech, indicating it was turned into a drill rifle, so it probably wasn't fired a whole lot in service; the bayonet stud has also been ground off the front barrel band. Mechanically, it seems in fine condition, and the lever and breech lock up tight.




It seems all complete, except it's missing the cleaning rod under the barrel. It was the end of the show for today, so I offered they guy $200 for it, and he took it. Now I'm home wondering what exactly I have, what it's actually worth, and whether it would be better to keep it as a collectible drill rifle hanging on the wall, or get it rebarreled, or sleeved, and turn it back into a shooter. Anybody got any thoughts, or information?

 

[Jim Watson]

A neat little gun. Pity the barrel is ruined. You could have it lined or maybe chamber sleeved to .45-70 for common ammo.

"It was marked .577-450 on the tag, but the bore is clearly smaller, I believe it's a .450-577 conversion"

The tag was correct. British convention for a bottleneck cartridge is to put the parent caliber first, the neck-down second; just the reverse of US practice. It is a .577 necked down to .450.

 

[GCBurner]

If I could find a gunsmith who could sleeve the chamber for .45-70, it would be a neat little carbine. I understand R.I.C. carbines are kind of scarce, since they weren't in use long before they got replaced by the .303 Lee-Enfields. I'd prefer to keep it in original condition, as much as possible, but parts are kind of scarce for these, nowadays, so doing anything toward a restoration, particularly as a shooter, is likely to be expensive.

 

[GCBurner]

Looking around the Web, I see some people shooting .45 Colt rounds in Martin-Henry .577-450s using a chamber insert from The Old Western Scrounger. The deactivating cut in the barrel seems to be right about in the middle of the chamber area. I'm wondering if one of these chamber inserts would be long enough to reach past the cut area, and allow blackpowder equivalent .45 Colt load to be fired, without having to get the action rebarreled, sleeved, or otherwise mess up its original configuration?

I'm not actually sure what the real collectors value of an original R.I.C. Artillery Carbine is, but I'm pretty sure it's more than the $200 I paid for this one, even as a drill rifle. If I find out it's not worth more than $200, I might as well just strip the action of salable parts and rebuild it as a .45-70 or .45-90, and make a new gun out of it.

 

[Germster]

I think it's a neat little rifle too. It's a Mark II. The Lobster Backs used Mark I's at Rourk's Drift. They just found a hord of them in India and they are being imported today. Condition is generally lousy, but they'll clean them up and sell a nicer gun. Cost? More than a grand.

Google M.H. rifles and you'll find their site. They'd sell you a barrel I'm pretty sure. They sold me a Firing Pin for my Mark IV Martini Henry. They did not make the M.H. in the 577 round which was used in the Snider. Your rifle is a 577/450. Too bad about that cut. I wonder if it can be fixed? I rather doubt it.

I'd hang it on the wall and tell stories about the Zulu Warriors. Get a spear too. Maybe a shield. I take my M.H. rifle, afix the bayonet and then put on the movie. I don't point it at the screen and say "bang, bang", but if I was younger I probably would. I also have the spears and shield. Neat huh?

 

[GCBurner]

Yes, I did some more research, and it is a MK II Artillery Carbine, which is in fact an original MK II 1877 Rifle which has been cut down to carbine length. The rifle rear sight was removed, and a carbine rear sight soldered to the barrel. Also, this one bears the R.I.C. brass marker on the butt showing that it was issued to the Royal Irish Constabulary around 1899, where these were used until replaced by .303 Lee Enfield Carbines in 1904.
http://irishconstabulary.com/topic/907
Among other armory modifications for R.I.C. use, the rear sling swivel was removed from the trigger guard and reloacated to the butt stock, and the stud for the sword bayonet was removed from the front barrel band.
Although mine was deactivated into a drill rifle by the saw cut to the chamber, and having the tip cut off the firing pin, a good many of these were converted to .303 calibre during WWI for Home Guard use. Apparently, the .303 barrel of a SMLE No. 1 Mark III will fit the receiver, requiring only a modified extractor and a bushing for a smaller diameter firing pin. There are a bunch of Martini-Henry .303s for sale, still.
Original parts for these are available from Atlanta Cutlery, which imported a huge stash of these rifles from an old armory in Nepal, but I think the only things I'm going to replace on mine are the missing cleaning rod and the sling, and leave it as a wall hanger. It's not quite in GOOD enough shape to shoot, and it's not quite in BAD enough shape to strip to the bare receiver and rebuild. I'm just disassembling it to thoroughly clean and lubricate, and make sure it's protected from rusting, to preserve it in its original condition.

 

[Germster]

I'd like to own one of those Martini Henry .303s. Your rifle, even if it cannot be fired is still an interesting piece of history. I'd hang it too and tell the story to my friends.

I have never shot mine, and it's in good shape. It's just too difficult to make the ammo. I've got a few .43 Mausers that are much easier to load for, so those are the late 19th Century rifles that I shoot.

Enjoy your old rifle.

 

[GCBurner]

IMA-USA has new manufactured .577-450 ammo made by Ten-X. At $139 for a box of 20, it's kind of pricey, but it's boxer primed reloadable brass, and Lee makes the dies for it. I'm inclined to get one of the full-sized, functional Martini-Henrys they've got as a companion piece.
http://www.ima-usa.com/militaria/ammunition/martini-henry-577-450-ammunition-box-of-20-by-ten-x.html

 

[Germster]

T!hat's interesting. All 577/450 cases are expensive. But they are fun to shoot. All you have to do is to prime pour in some BP and maybe a wad and a bullet. You can use 459 bullets for the 45/70. However I have never done this! I've got the rifle!

I also have a Snider and the dies for it. I have shot it with minie balls used in standard Springfield rifles...shot around corners. I've talked with a guy who shoots his Snider with round balls and does okay. That'd be fun too.

 

[GCBurner]

I ordered a Mk IV from IMA the other day, and got the missing Mk II cleaning rod and leather heat shield for the Carbine, which will also serve to cover the barrel cut when it's on display. I wrote to see if they have any extra barrels available in their warehouse, somewhere, too, but so far no reply from customer service. The Mk IV has been shipped UPS, and should get here Wednesday.

 

[Germster]

I ordered a Mk IV from IMA the other day, and got the missing Mk II cleaning rod and leather heat shield for the Carbine, which will also serve to cover the barrel cut when it's on display. I wrote to see if they have any extra barrels available in their warehouse, somewhere, too, but so far no reply from customer service. The Mk IV has been shipped UPS, and should get here Wednesday.

I read that in the heat of battle these Martini Henry's got very hot. I didn't know that they had a heat shield, but I can see why. When you mount the bayonet on these rifles they seem to stretch into the next county.

I enjoy watching "Zulu" too. Those natives are real Zulu's and the Zulu chief was a real Zulu chief. As you can tell they really got into that film. It is not gory...no blood. The Zulus just sort of fall over. But when push comes to shove "Zulu" is a pretty accurate flick. It has to be compared to the massacre at Isandlwana (sp?) to be put into proper context. There is a movie about that event too, but I cannot recall its title.

 

[GCBurner]

I read that in the heat of battle these Martini Henry's got very hot. I didn't know that they had a heat shield, but I can see why. When you mount the bayonet on these rifles they seem to stretch into the next county.

I enjoy watching "Zulu" too. Those natives are real Zulu's and the Zulu chief was a real Zulu chief. As you can tell they really got into that film. It is not gory...no blood. The Zulus just sort of fall over. But when push comes to shove "Zulu" is a pretty accurate flick. It has to be compared to the massacre at Isandlwana (sp?) to be put into proper context. There is a movie about that event too, but I cannot recall its title.

The Mk I and Mk II M-H rifles had a steel pin that went through the forend and the barrel at the breech, along with two barrel bands to hold the forend on. You can see the pin in my second photo above. Starting with the Mk III, they went with a steel hanger inlet into the underside of the forend, which fit over the front lip of the receiver, to replace the rear pin.
My converted Carbine has the bayonet lug ground off the front barrel band, as all of the Constabulary type carbines were supplied with the older Pattern 1876 socket bayonets that fit over the front sight, just like the ones in the movie. I'll probably get one of these, eventually.
The Mk IV I ordered from IMA comes complete with the Mk III type sword bayonet, which I thought made it a pretty good deal: http://www.ima-usa.com/militaria/an...fle-w-mk3-sword-bayonet-cleaned-complete.html