Pistol for 4 year old?

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I have no problem with taking a 4 year old shooting. And if people who think I'm one of the "Nay Sayers" would go back and actually read my post, they might see what I wrote instead of what they "Think" I wrote. But the original question was soliciting the type of gun. The original post mentioned starting them off with a Pump BB gun, but didn't want to do that because there were no ROUNDS, MAGAZINES, and other things to teach them about "Gun Safety". And that is what I am discussing, debating, arguing, or whatever you want to call it.

Definitely take the kids out and let them shoot. Proper supervision, safety, and hearing/eye protection is what you need to worry about. And definitely choose a gun that is appropriate for their "Physical Size". BB guns are perfect. Possibly a 22 rifle. Where I disagree is when the OP mentions wanting a more "Realistic" gun that has cylinders, magazines, rounds of ammunition, etc... So they can learn gun safety. Implying, that the 4 year old might need to "Clear" a gun and make it safe. Beep.... Wrong answer. The 4 year old doesn't need to make any gun safe or to clear it. They don't need to know how a magazine works. They don't even need to know how to load or unload a weapon. The only 2 gun safety things a 4 year old needs to learn and know are:

1.You are NOT allowed to touch any gun unless I, your father, mother, etc.... HANDS IT TO YOU.
2. If you ever see a gun, that is Unattended, "DO NOT TOUCH THE GUN". Bring up to my attention or that of another adult, that there is a gun that is unattended.

Those are the only 2 gun safety rules a 4 year old needs to know. It doesn't matter if you want to take the 4 year old shooting. That's cool. Use air soft, BB guns, 22 with subsonic rounds, etc... Use a pistol, pump, bolt, or whatever the 4 year old can handle and you happen to have available. Not get stupid and let the child try and shoot "Your favorite pistol or rifle". You'll probably scare them away from guns. But when it comes to gun safety, the child doesn't even need to know what a magazine is. They don't need to know how to load/unload a weapon. They don't need to know how to CHECK if a weapon is safe. They can't comprehend and retain half of what you "THINK" you want them to learn. At 4 years old, SIMPLY LET THEM HAVE FUN SHOOTING TIN CANS!!! And as for safety, just let them know that the same "Round" that is punching holes in a tin can or paper, can punch a hole in people. And therefor, if I, your dad, don't HAND YOU THE GUN, then you need to know: "DON'T TOUCH THE GUN". And if you ever see a gun that is unattended, to tel me or another adult that there's a gun that is unattended.

Now, is that really that difficult to understand? Sorry, but I don't believe that this is debatable. Some people might think it is. Some might think that a 4 year old is quite capable of learning how to load, unload, clear, and make safe a weapon. Fine; believe that. You're wrong, but I won't debate that. And I won't debate someone trying to rationalize teaching a 4 year old anything more than that a gun CAN be fun; that it CAN be dangerous; How to aim; How to pull the trigger and hit what they're aiming at; and to ONLY do it if dad/mom is there and handed them the gun to shoot. other than that; it's simply "DON'T TOUCH THE GUN";/.... Pretty damn simple.
 
It depends on the kid. I'd trust my 6 year old daughter before I would trust my 12 year old nephew. I'm not sure I will ever trust that nephew. The last time I let him hold my AR I removed the guts. Sure enough the gun was pointed right at me and he denied it even when caught in the act.
 
He's developed quite a flinch, however.
Click to expand...
LOL! :D

No worse than many accomplished competitive shooters I've watched who pull a trigger and get an unexpected "click" instead of "bang."

Somehow, I'm sure he'll have the coaching to work through that problem on his way to Grand Master by the time he's 12!

-Sam
 
Just to show how wide the variety of kids' capacities may be, I'll post a vid of Miko Andres.
Click to expand...

He certainly is amazing, able to repeat the steps exactly as he was drilled.

You can see what type of training he got by looking at the video of his sisters on there who are using a fake gun. Over and over they try to get them to do certain steps. I imagine once Miko did everything correctly many times in a row without a single control error they moved onto something that actually shoots. Eventually working up to the .45 ACP he now shoots.
A lengthy long term training requiring someone patient to give.

So he was taught very well, and does good. That still does not mean he has the capacity to understand life and death, or what certain decisions mean.
He is doing what he was drilled to do exactly as he was drilled to do it by an extremely patient adult who is clearly spending a lot of thier time devoted to these activities based on the trophies.
But you can teach a puppy to do something, and to do it well through constant repetition. That still does not change where thier decision making process is in life.

If someone is too young to be held legally responsible at any level, I think they are too young to be handed a lethal weapon.
A 6 year old can murder someone and receives no punishment. Zero. An 8-10 year old gets at least a couple years or probation in most states.
Most are not subject to any adult punishments or able to be tried as an adult until 15-16+ or 18 in various states. Someone 12-15 cannot be tried as an adult in most states, and as a result only goes to jail in the juvenile system for a limited number of years.
This intentional and planned massacre of multiple people done by an 11 and 13 year old only resulted in maximum confinement until the age of 18 under state law for example.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westside_Middle_School_massacre
Yet someone below the age of criminal responsibility would not even get that.

If someone is considered incapable of being responsible for thier actions in any way under the law, like a 4-6 year old, I think it does not make sense to give them a lethal weapon.

Anyone who gives someone below the age of any criminal responsibility a lethal weapon should be liable for any results. If the 4-6 year old child shoots and kills someone the adult should go to prison for manslaughter. If they injure someone the adult should be charged.



I am sure I could teach a chimpanzee to shoot safely. Just as I can teach a dog to perform a trick flawlessly through repetitive training. That still would not make it a wise course of action. It would not change the capacity of the animal's decision making process, even if they could safely repeat what they were trained to do without a mistake consistently.
 
Like everyone else said. 4 is just too young.

They just can't understand the danger yet its too abstact. There is just to much out there on TV and in movies that make guns seem like toys to young boys and they just cant understand the difference yet.

Why does a 4 year old need to know how to handle a handgun anyhow?

IMHO a 4 year old handgun training should be -DO NOT TOUCH.
 
While the video of Mikos was impressive, I've got some pretty good video of my dog doing some tricks that would make you say "awwwwwww... what a cute little puppy".

I imagine what everybody here is talking about (including the OP) is supervised shooting with young 'ens. I get it. That's cool and it's all about parental responsibility and engagement and ensuring your child is safe.

The video with Mikos is grossly negligent as far as I'm concerned. Not only can the kid not count (and yes, I get that many other shooters have the same problem), but I saw some serious safety violations that would cause great concern if I saw a thirty year old man doing the same. I get it was a timed course, yet in the first twenty seconds of the video, he runs towards the photographer on the left (maybe dad?) and chambers a round while running. He could have tripped, he might not have sweeped dear old dad, but the gun sure as heck wasn't pointed in a safe direction. This is a kid that can't even fit the 1911 in his hand and pull the trigger because his fingers aren't long enough - he has to use his second hand to manipulate the trigger.

As clever and cute as this is, Mikos is an accident waiting to happen.
 
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I started with my Grandfathers Rem '06 .22 rolling block rifle at the age of four. Then came a Ruger 10-22 at about 8years. My Ruger single six didnt come along until 10. Then at 12 I bought my Ruger Blakchawk .41 mag with my summers lawn mowing money.
I personally think 4 is a little young for a handgun. They are to easy to get pointed in the wrong direction.
 
P-22 will fit their hands but I took my 5 yr son the other day he was shooting the P-22 and scaring the crap out of me. I would stick with a rifle because anything small enough for them to handle is hard for you to help them manipulate. Also, there are too many moving parts around those little fingers and they can turn that pistol so fast!
 
A four year old is a little to close to still being a rugrat for me.

My dad started me off with a BB rifle @ age five, and then

A single shot .22 on my sixth birthday.

One thing I'll never forget, about 6 months later I went out of the house

Into the front yard with the .22, unloaded, and swept

My mother and sister.

Just that fast the gun went into lockup for 3 months.

Boy did I learn.

After that it was a single shot 20 gauge.

I don't think I was allowed to shoot a pistol until 8 or 9.

Just my .02 on how I grew up.

isher
 
Errr...water pistol! Still, you tell them "dont squirt me and they still do it", water dries without all the staining blood seems to leave behind. As with all things opinions will differ. Last week in Sumner, Illinois a 13 year old boy took a rifle out of his father's gun safe and stated "I'm going hunting". The father told his son to put the gun back in the safe. As his child was obeying him the gun fired for some reason and hit him under the chin...he died. The particulars of the story are still being ironed out. Still, there is a dead child. I think 4 years old is simply too young to trust with a real weapon. I lost a child and do want anybody to ever go through what I did (and still am) going through. Nothing is worth that. My daughter did not die from a firearm related accident but the cause is not important. And I love my firearms and respect all those who teach their children gun appreciation and safety.

If I could have my daughter back I would burn down my house and drive all my cars into the river. Please don't take unnecessary chances. I'm just trying to be a friend.
 
danbrew said:
This is a kid that can't even fit the 1911 in his hand and pull the trigger because his fingers aren't long enough - he has to use his second hand to manipulate the trigger.
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Yeah, I noticed that. But his trainer may be a point shooter. I suppose the really question here is whether it was his trainer/dad/whoever that helped the child achieve something he wanted to do, or if he was simply a guinea pig for some adult's bragging rights -- which wouldn't surprise me, but I don't really know Filipino culture. For example I'm having a hard time seeing why the kid had to "compete" with a .45 instead of going 22LR.

t165, that story with the 13y/o represents gross negligence on the part of the parent. This is a child the parent knew did not have sufficient gun safety understanding and was holding a gun, one that the parent apparently kept loaded -- and the parent told him to put it back. WHAT! If an adult friend of mine picks up one of my firearms the first thing would me be getting over there double time and make it safe, even if I 'knew' it was already safe. WAY more to this story than a "<=13y/o are too young" statement.

I'm really sorry about your daughter. Some friends of mine lost about half their children, and I can only imagine what it would be like to lose a child. Indeed, it's the most unnatural experience anyone can have, something we weren't designed for and perhaps that's why it is so hard for us. I can imagine the joy they will have of seeing their children again one day, thanks to the perfect Son who died for us.


Well I'll start out with a daisy and see how it goes. Probably make it a Christmas present, only one that stays with me. Then maybe progress up to a DesertEagle, but in a mild 44mag. ;) Thanks for all the posts.
 
Okay, I am going to weigh in here.

I have a 5 year old daughter, so I am in a similar boat as to when to start firearms training. I have decided on next summer. She's smart, and curious, which is why I will start next summer. Better that she begin to understand the danger before she is big enough to get into danger herself. I think four is a bit young, and physically small besides. A year or two makes a huge difference in mental and physical development. I started at about 5 years, and I think that's about the right time to start introducing concepts of abstract danger that firearms can represent.

We will start with a single shot rifle in .22 and not a pistol. Rifles are easier to handle and control, and easier for me to keep pointed in a safe direction. I have even considered tethering the gun to the shooting bench in such a way that it allows a fair amount of freedom to aim and shoot, but does not allow the gun to swing in an unsafe direction. Targets will probably be eggs, fruit, melons, or cans. These are active targets, but also fairly durable in a child's eyes, far more so than a paper target. Children can easily tear or punch holes in paper, so it fails to demonstrate the destructive potential of a bullet at speed. Eggs and fruit explode. Melons show serious damage. Cans get punched and bounce around. If something can hole the side of a steel can, then in a child's mind, it's stronger than steel. If you ask my daughter what is stronger than steel, she is currently under the opinion that nothing is nor can be, because cars and buildings and bridges are made of steel. If cans are made of steel, but a gun destroys them, then she will understand its destructive potential.

Several shots is enough to get the idea, then we'll put it away for a while. Start slow, stress safety and responsibility.
 
:)

gun15.jpg
 
This is a joke....Right?

I seriously hope this is a joke. I have a 4-year-old and he doesn't have the strength, understanding, cognitive development, fine motor skills or emotional development to safely handle a firearm. Don't get me wrong, I love all shooting sports and some day he will be trained. My son asks me all the time when he can go duck hunting with his dad and grand dad and he will...some day. He has been educated just enough to understand that he leaves daddy's firearms alone until he is older and I tell him he is ready.

Just to let you know, I am a teacher. I have been endorsed in my state of residence to be a highly trained professional. With this extensive training, I have had to take countless courses in child development. My wife is also a teacher-specifically in early childhood. She laughed when I told her this and sent milk shooting out her nose. She also enjoys shooting, but would string me up my toenails if I even thought of taking my son to the range-EVEN WITH A BB GUN.

I have seen those knuckleheads who seem to think their kid is macho or strong because he has "fired .45s since he was five." I mention this because one of the choices you asked about was a 1911. It is dangerous not only for the child, but for the individuals standing in the general area. Here is a thought, what if the worst happens and that 1911 or other autoloader you mentioned slamfires? There is no way a child could control that. What about ear protection? Have you found a pair of shooting muffs that would fit on a child's head? Shooting glasses? If the safety equipment fails because it doesnt fit, what happens if the gun kaBooms? Will the child be protected? At the very least, the child will never want to go near a firearm again. The worst thing that could happen would be that they end up maimed or dead.

Don't we give the idiots who want to take our firearms enough ammunition without being irresponsible and handing out firearms to individuals who are still trying to truely master "The potty?":scrutiny:
 
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^have you read the thread? Hope you have a great first duck hunt one of these days when your son is ready.
 
I'm not going to tell you how to raise your son, but IMO, four is just a little too young. Hey, maybe it'll work out just fine and your kid will have trophies one day.

I'm sure you're responsible and knowledgable enough to make sure he handles it safely, but I just don't think it's worth the risk. It's a little heartbreaking to think about what would happen and what you/anyone would be feeling if four years old really did turn out to be a little too young.

I'm not a father yet, but my plan is to have maybe a plastic replica of a gun (one of these blue/grey copies), and let him hold it only when I say he's allowed (So he can be just like dad). And if I see the muzzle pointed at me or mom, or if his finger even briefly touches the "trigger," he wouldn't see it again for weeks. That's where I'd probably start. But I'm a young guy yet, I don't really know for sure how I'm going to handle it.

Anyway, if you really want him to start shooting, I think a BB gun is perfect. There may not be magazines and such, but he could learn the most basic rules -- the gun is always loaded, always point it in a safe direction.
 
Kids & muzzle control can be an issue. I just used the lever BB gun with 2 young boys. The 5 y/o shoots fine with me at his side.
 
christcorp said:
I have no problem with taking a 4 year old shooting. And if people who think I'm one of the "Nay Sayers" would go back and actually read my post, they might see what I wrote instead of what they "Think" I wrote. But the original question was soliciting the type of gun. The original post mentioned starting them off with a Pump BB gun, but didn't want to do that because there were no ROUNDS, MAGAZINES, and other things to teach them about "Gun Safety". And that is what I am discussing, debating, arguing, or whatever you want to call it.

Definitely take the kids out and let them shoot. Proper supervision, safety, and hearing/eye protection is what you need to worry about. And definitely choose a gun that is appropriate for their "Physical Size". BB guns are perfect. Possibly a 22 rifle. Where I disagree is when the OP mentions wanting a more "Realistic" gun that has cylinders, magazines, rounds of ammunition, etc... So they can learn gun safety. Implying, that the 4 year old might need to "Clear" a gun and make it safe. Beep.... Wrong answer. The 4 year old doesn't need to make any gun safe or to clear it. They don't need to know how a magazine works. They don't even need to know how to load or unload a weapon. The only 2 gun safety things a 4 year old needs to learn and know are:

1.You are NOT allowed to touch any gun unless I, your father, mother, etc.... HANDS IT TO YOU.
2. If you ever see a gun, that is Unattended, "DO NOT TOUCH THE GUN". Bring up to my attention or that of another adult, that there is a gun that is unattended.

Those are the only 2 gun safety rules a 4 year old needs to know. It doesn't matter if you want to take the 4 year old shooting. That's cool. Use air soft, BB guns, 22 with subsonic rounds, etc... Use a pistol, pump, bolt, or whatever the 4 year old can handle and you happen to have available. Not get stupid and let the child try and shoot "Your favorite pistol or rifle". You'll probably scare them away from guns. But when it comes to gun safety, the child doesn't even need to know what a magazine is. They don't need to know how to load/unload a weapon. They don't need to know how to CHECK if a weapon is safe. They can't comprehend and retain half of what you "THINK" you want them to learn. At 4 years old, SIMPLY LET THEM HAVE FUN SHOOTING TIN CANS!!! And as for safety, just let them know that the same "Round" that is punching holes in a tin can or paper, can punch a hole in people. And therefor, if I, your dad, don't HAND YOU THE GUN, then you need to know: "DON'T TOUCH THE GUN". And if you ever see a gun that is unattended, to tel me or another adult that there's a gun that is unattended.

Now, is that really that difficult to understand? Sorry, but I don't believe that this is debatable. Some people might think it is. Some might think that a 4 year old is quite capable of learning how to load, unload, clear, and make safe a weapon. Fine; believe that. You're wrong, but I won't debate that. And I won't debate someone trying to rationalize teaching a 4 year old anything more than that a gun CAN be fun; that it CAN be dangerous; How to aim; How to pull the trigger and hit what they're aiming at; and to ONLY do it if dad/mom is there and handed them the gun to shoot. other than that; it's simply "DON'T TOUCH THE GUN";/.... Pretty damn simple.
Click to expand...

Those are GREAT rules for a youngster to know. I may be reading too much into it... or maybe not enough info writtten.....

However, using your words... "BEEP... WRONG ANSWER".

If those are the only two rules that you think a 4 year old needs to know regarding guns....
1) You dont need to teach him to shoot a gun to teach him either one of those rules.

2) ANY person, regardless of age, that learns to shoots needs to also know how to load/unload and various states of safety for the gun (ie: manual safety, broken open shot gun, open cylinder of revolver, hammer cocked or down etc etc for the given gun).

If they can not demonstrate and comprehend that, they should not be doing anything more that sitting on daddy's lap and pulling the trigger while daddy is holding the RIFLE.

Those are VERY basic things to learn. Saftey is in the brain. If they cant do those things... they dont have the mental ability to safely shoot while in sole control of the gun <insert period here>

I had a Red Ryder at 5 and a bolt .22 at 6.
 
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