Pistols (Possibly Dueling)

[Bud Klemp]

My wife's Grandfather passed away back in July, and in going through his things, we found a pair of pistols. He had told us before he passed, that he had brought them back with him from the war. He served in the navy during WWII and was in Italy during the Anzio landing and Normandy on D-Day. He always said he got them when he was in Italy.The only markings I can find on the guns is the number 357 on the inside of the trigger guard. Our family would love to know more about the guns and the history. Is there anyone who knows or could share some insight on what we have? In case you couldn't tell, I am a novice...lol. Thank you in advance!

 

[BullRunBear]

They have the stereotypical look of dueling pistols. Beautiful wood for the stocks. And just behind the trigger it looks like there's a screw to adjust the trigger. I can't determine their age. Hope some of the more knowledgeable members can provide information.

Jeff

 

[Bud Klemp]

Thank you Jeff! Just another note, they both have the number 357 on the inside of the trigger guard.

 

[BullRunBear]

The 357 on both trigger guards doesn't mean anything to me. Sorry I can't tell you more.

BTW, welcome to The High Road.

Jeff

 

[mustanger98]

From what I've heard, most dueling pistols were smoothbore whereas target pistols would be rifled. I can see what appears to be the front sight on one, but no rear sight on either. Though not totally sure, I'm leaning towards the dueling type. Sorry, but no clue to monetary value. I'd be looking at whether they're still shootable with light or moderate powder charges, but that's me.

 

[Slamfire]

Very interesting! A lot of things were brought by WW2 Veterans. My Dad called it "liberating". Hard to believe, but there was a time when WW2 was "the war" and things were referred to as pre War and post War. We have had so many wars since then I think the distinction has moved. Also hard to believe the Vietnam War was over 50 years ago. Time passes so quickly.

Anyway, need more and better pictures. Especially of any proof marks. This does not have to be an Italian pistol, but the probability is high. The Italians have been making fine arms before Columbus arrived on these shores. Beretta has been around since the 1520. That is an awfully long time in the firearms business. The Italians, the French, the Germans, the Austrians, the Russians, and the English, all had traditions of killing each other over honor. You were either very polite and considerate, or you got shot! It was great stage drama for all those involved.

Americans did the same thing. Andrew Jackson had a pistol ball in his body for the rest of his life from a duel he won. President Jackson was the real thing, he did not bluff. When the South Carolina legislature was posturing to pull the State out of the Union, President Jackson told them, that if they did, he would take the Army down there and use every available tree to hang the legislature. And you know, they believed him. Because he would have.

Markings might be under the barrel, under the lock plate. And is the barrel smooth bore? I know more about the English practice because I don't read or write French, Spanish, German, Russian. The British went through periods where rifled barrels were banned.

 

[arcticap]

I also wonder if there could be any proof marks or makers marks under the barrel or inside of the lock?
The Italian proof house of Gardone and Brescia was founded in 1910 and National Proof House tests in Italy were optional until 1923. --->>> https://www.bancoprova.it/index.php/en/about-us.html

An Italian wheel lock gun that was on the Mayflower when it arrived in America was marked and identified as made by Beretta.
And the London proof house began in 1637.

Many guns made by gun makers around the world have 2 or 3 letter codes that indicate which company made them and in which country.
But these are all letters only.--->>> http://www.earmi.it/armi/database/Gun Make Codes.htm

The only 2 or 3 number codes that I found were German ordnance makers marks from WW II which there wasn't any number 357. . --->>> https://proofhouse.com/cm/ger_ord_codes.htm

If there are no markings to be found anywhere then that would suggest that it was privately made and that the maker wanted to remain anonymous.
Unless there is a database that 357 corresponds to that I'm not aware of.

How old do you estimate the guns to be?
What is the approximate caliber of the barrels?

 

[Jim Watson]

I would call them target pistols. Back action percussion locks put them on the "modern" side of the dueling era. Stocks sure look shiny and slippery, I suspect them of a 20th century coat of varnish to pretty up an antique.

 

[arcticap]

They look similar to this cased set of Belgian "Dueling Pistols" in .50 cal that are listed on Gunbroker for $4,950 except not nearly as fancy.
Do yours also have Damascus barrels?



"This is a very fine pair of Belgian made, Continental style dueling pistols in an excellent state of preservation, unmarked as to manufacturer. They come complete with all accessories in original wooden case.

Pistols themselves are Liege proofed, with top quality Damascus twist barrels, German silver mounted, with a medium amount of engraving. Back action locks also with medium amount of engraving.

Both actions work flawlessly.

Stocks are in excellent condition with very few minor nicks and bruises. Checkering is of fine quality and finish is in excellent condition.

Overall a very fine condition, pair of high quality classic smoothbore percussion duelers in approximately 50 caliber." --->>> https://www.gunbroker.com/item/827349308

 

[Bud Klemp]

Thanks for all of the feedback so far.

 

[Bud Klemp]

I also wonder if there could be any proof marks or makers marks under the barrel or inside of the lock?
The Italian proof house of Gardone and Brescia was founded in 1910 and National Proof House tests in Italy were optional until 1923. --->>> https://www.bancoprova.it/index.php/en/about-us.html

An Italian wheel lock gun that was on the Mayflower when it arrived in America was marked and identified as made by Beretta.
And the London proof house began in 1637.

Many guns made by gun makers around the world have 2 or 3 letter codes that indicate which company made them and in which country.
But these are all letters only.--->>> http://www.earmi.it/armi/database/Gun Make Codes.htm

The only 2 or 3 number codes that I found were German ordnance makers marks from WW II which there wasn't any number 357. . --->>> https://proofhouse.com/cm/ger_ord_codes.htm

If there are no markings to be found anywhere then that would suggest that it was privately made and that the maker wanted to remain anonymous.
Unless there is a database that 357 corresponds to that I'm not aware of.

How old do you estimate the guns to be?
What is the approximate caliber of the barrels?

Unsure of the age, but he brought them back from the War and was in Italy in ‘43. I would guess at least 100 years, but really no idea on age. Also, no idea on caliber, but posting a picture to give an idea on diameter.

 

[Bud Klemp]

I also wonder if there could be any proof marks or makers marks under the barrel or inside of the lock?
The Italian proof house of Gardone and Brescia was founded in 1910 and National Proof House tests in Italy were optional until 1923. --->>> https://www.bancoprova.it/index.php/en/about-us.html

An Italian wheel lock gun that was on the Mayflower when it arrived in America was marked and identified as made by Beretta.
And the London proof house began in 1637.

Many guns made by gun makers around the world have 2 or 3 letter codes that indicate which company made them and in which country.
But these are all letters only.--->>> http://www.earmi.it/armi/database/Gun Make Codes.htm

The only 2 or 3 number codes that I found were German ordnance makers marks from WW II which there wasn't any number 357. . --->>> https://proofhouse.com/cm/ger_ord_codes.htm

If there are no markings to be found anywhere then that would suggest that it was privately made and that the maker wanted to remain anonymous.
Unless there is a database that 357 corresponds to that I'm not aware of.

How old do you estimate the guns to be?
What is the approximate caliber of the

I also wonder if there could be any proof marks or makers marks under the barrel or inside of the lock?
The Italian proof house of Gardone and Brescia was founded in 1910 and National Proof House tests in Italy were optional until 1923. --->>> https://www.bancoprova.it/index.php/en/about-us.html

An Italian wheel lock gun that was on the Mayflower when it arrived in America was marked and identified as made by Beretta.
And the London proof house began in 1637.

Many guns made by gun makers around the world have 2 or 3 letter codes that indicate which company made them and in which country.
But these are all letters only.--->>> http://www.earmi.it/armi/database/Gun Make Codes.htm

The only 2 or 3 number codes that I found were German ordnance makers marks from WW II which there wasn't any number 357. . --->>> https://proofhouse.com/cm/ger_ord_codes.htm

If there are no markings to be found anywhere then that would suggest that it was privately made and that the maker wanted to remain anonymous.
Unless there is a database that 357 corresponds to that I'm not aware of.

How old do you estimate the guns to be?
What is the approximate caliber of the barrels?

Thanks for the resource links. Looking at it with a magnifying glass, I believe it is either a 387 or 587 stamped. Unfortunately, none of those translated either.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

From what I can see with the tape measure its real close to a .50 cal. If you can find some ball gauges you could at least get the diameter of the lands.

 

[robhof]

Rifled and rear sight would more probably put them into the target pistol realm, but I have seen classic duelers with rear sights and rifling, usually of a higher status; engraved fancy inlay and high end stock.

 

[Jenrick]

Without any proof marks, it will be almost impossible to provide any provenance to the pistols. Personally I would say they are most likely target pistols.

European dueling largely centered around feeling strongly enough about something to be willing to die for it, not necessarily kill for it. The military duels on the continent usually didn't have this nicety of thought, but on the civilian side it was very common. A frequent result of duels, was for one party to fire into the air, and the other to be so overcome by their opponents gallantry to do the same. Sword duels were rarely "to the death," and only bad luck (considering how poorly most people shoot pistols today, imagine how they shot back in the day with almost zero practice) would cause a ball to strike either party.

Rifle bores was a massive faux pas in Europe for dueling pistols. So called "scratch rifling," very shallow and almost invisible to casual inspection, rifling was developed as a way to get around the social prohibition against rifled pistols for dueling. The English gunsmith Durs Egg is noted for this feature in many of his pistols. Sights more complex than a front bead are in a similar vein, but not quite as bad, particularly as the time period moved closer to modern period (and dueling fell out of favor). These being caplocks, this would put them later at least. Adjustable triggers are also not a common feature on dueling pistols, set (or "hair" if you prefer) were reasonably common (arguably to help the shooters fire far too soon and avoid hitting anyone). An adjustable trigger would again smack of a deliberate desire to actually improve your ability to strike your opponent.

Now if these pistols had come from Ireland, Scotland, or the America's the dueling tradition was far different. Being willing to die for one's honor was excellent, the other poor bastard die'ing for his was even better. A general requirement for at least one party to be hit before the shooting stopped led to an entirely different technical specifications for dueling pistols in those countries.

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

This looks similar:
https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...percussion-target-pistol.cfm?gun_id=101277598

 

[Jim Watson]

There was the young gentleman who was said to "culp his dozen wafers before breakfast." Twelve shots at the gummed wafers used to close an envelope when inconvenient to heat sealing wax. No show of honor by standing an opponent's fire for him.

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

Note the second "1830" innovation:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/9780470694589.app1

 

[Bud Klemp]

Thank you to everyone who provided some feedback. As I find out more about these guns, I’ll share more information.