Plastic "brass knuckles" as a self defense item?

[Armueller2001]

Ran across these online

Apparently they're made of high-impact plastic and are supposed to be as strong as the metal version... and I had a look into Illinois state law which specifies "metal knuckles" in their unlawful use of weapons but nothing about plastic... thinking I might pick up a pair to keep in my pocket. Good thing to have "just in case"

BTW, I live in Illinois, otherwise I'd be carrying a gun.

(720 ILCS 5/24-1) (from Ch. 38, par. 24-1)
Sec. 24-1. Unlawful Use of Weapons.
(a) A person commits the offense of unlawful use of weapons
when he knowingly:
(1) Sells, manufactures, purchases, possesses or
carries any bludgeon, black-jack, slung-shot, sand-club,
sand-bag, metal knuckles, throwing star, or any knife,
commonly referred to as a switchblade knife, which has a
blade that opens automatically by hand pressure applied to
a button, spring or other device in the handle of the
knife, or a ballistic knife, which is a device that propels
a knifelike blade as a projectile by means of a coil
spring, elastic material or compressed gas......

 

[General Geoff]

You'd eventually win in court but I doubt it's worth the hassle just to carry around some marginally effective fist jewelry.

 

[ChristopherG]

Paragraph 2 (continuing the same sentence) in the code includes these blanket terms:

or any other dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument of like character

Now, if you diagram the sentence, I'm not sure how a judge would see the attachment of this phrase to the clause you quoted (again, in the same sentence); and I'm not a lawyer--but neither is the cop who's going to stop you and find this 'instrument of like character' on you. I would expect to be arrested.

 

[coloradokevin]

I had the same thoughts as the general!

You may also want to look into local statutes, in addition to your state criminal code. Many municipalities regulate these kinds of things as either "dangerous" or "deadly" weapons. Heck, if you were unlucky, they might even try to define it as a "bludgeon", and thus fit it to the elements of the crime that you just posted (it is defined as a "short heavy weapon" or "a short heavy club used as a weapon" by Encarta... it is a stretch, but still). At the very least, you could fall under the "any other weapon" clauses that nearly every state/city uses (including yours)

 

[ilbob]

You never know what a court might decide. They might decide that plastic knuckles are similar enough to metal knuckles that they qualify as being illegal under the statute.

A court might decide that the real purpose of the law is to prevent you from carrying anything that might be used for self defense (which is of course quite true), and decide anything that could potential be used for self defense is thus illegal because it is of a similar nature, the similarity being it is used for self defense.

it would not surprise me one bit to find out such a precedent already exists.

 

[kingpin008]

Brass knuckles really aren't that effective - you're just as likely to break your own hand in the process. Ask me how I know. :banghead:

If you have to go with something like that, invest in a pair of good Sap Gloves, provided they're legal where you are. They're designed to be much more user-friendly, and have pockets of lead or steel shot sewn into the fingers and knuckle area. These actually conform to the hand, and will compress a bit when they impact an object (or a person) rather than the brass or plastic knuckles, which will force your flesh and bone to compress and conform around them.

 

[ConstitutionCowboy]

Looking at the picture, these appear to be chrome plated. Chrome is a metal. Beware!

Woody

 

[schadenfreude]

That is a weapon that can save your ass.

What you have to keep in mind is that it doesn't matter if its a deadly weapon or not. Once you hit a guy it potentially becomes assault. Even if its in self defense. If the officer doesn't see it your way he will charge you with assault with a weapon whether its a blender or a rock. It changes once the encounter has occurred.

That said, anything in or on your hand can do serious damage. Which is good when defending yourself. Then again because of the stigma associated with brass knuckles I think you would be screwed if you used them. How does that look? Walking around with your fight knuckles?


I used a roll of pennies in my hand to defend myself from someone 15 years ago in a pool hall. Fella thought I was robbing his friend on the tables and started pacing back and forth while we finished up the set. The counter guy gave me a roll of pennies and said watch my ass.

Came time for the guy to pay me and his big 6'4 friend starts poking his hand in my chest then grabs my shirt and then my throat.

1 punch to the side of his face and he buckled like a boxing knockout. It looked like I killed the guy, he was laying there with his legs all bent in crazy directions. His buddy got him to come around. They walked out and sat on the curb as the police were arriving. I slipped the pennies into the corner pocket and stood there while everyone explained what happened.

I was a kid, stupid and was robbing the guy on the table basically....... but your opponent makes the choice to play.(I did not get the $800) They didn't go to jail but man his face had a huge bump on it.

So yeah, very effective if you can fight some and running away is not an option. I will run from any fight that I can.

Sheesh....... I am so glad I grew up.

 

[leadcounsel]

Knuckle dusters are an illegal novelty weapon.

(1) Sells, manufactures, purchases, possesses or
carries any bludgeon...

Guess what - these are bludgeon type weapons. And while they are not metal knuckles, they are clearly intended to be covered under the statute. I can guarantee that you'd get arrested if you used them and spend thousands defending yourself. You may be found not-guilty on the technicality in the statute, but is it worth the risk? Really?

You have to ask yourself if carrying a marginally effective yet still illegal concealed weapon of marginal utility is worth the high cost of defending the prosecution and possibly winding up in jail, possibly on a felony assault charge. You need a basic understanding of the legal process in most states.

But before I get to that, consider that you can probably legally carry a small knife. Anything with a 3" blade is likely legal and more effective than knuckle dusters and has a legitimate other use. Knuckle dusters are for beating people up, plain and simple. Practically speaking, I can explain a 3" pocket knife to a judge. I cannot explain why you were carrying or beat up someone with knuckle dusters.

Now the legal analysis.

You can defend yourself in proportion to the level of attack. A non-deadly attack warrants a non-deadly defense. If someone punches you you can engage in hand-to-hand self defense. Now, the moment a weapon is introduced, or the moment you reasonably fear for serious bodily damage or death, you can use lethal self-defense (knife, gun, etc.).

Now this applies to the other person too. Say you got into a fistfight and suddenly produced knuckle dusters. Well, guess what, now you've up the ante and YOU are the aggressor committing felonious assault with a deadly weapon (the knuckle dusters). Not only are you committing a felony, but the other guy would be justified in using a club, knife, or even a GUN to defend himself.

Now, let's say you were being beaten senseless or attacked with a weapon and feared for imminent serious bodily harm or death. At that point you would be entitled to use a weapon in self defense. Are knuckle dusters your "best" option? And you're still breaking the law by possessing the knuckle dusters. So even though your in the right about defense, you're still in the wrong about the weapon. If you're going to be carrying an illegal weapon, ask yourself if knuckle dusters are the best one to carry. As I like to say, is the juice worth the squeeze. If the penalty is the same, why not carry a BF knife or club or golf club or baseball bat or "tire pressure club" sold at truckstops to "check your air pressure"? Or even just pay attention to your surroundings. A beer bottle, table leg, tire iron, etc would be equally effective weapons that you aren't going to be convicted of carrying unlawfully and you could use if you were lawfully entitled to defend yourself with a weapon. In this room right now I can see several unconvential things that could be effectively used as a weapon. A hammer, a wrench, a short 2x4, a hard cover book, a chair leg, a steel pipe, a rolled up magazine, a brick, a full water bottle, my office keys and a bottle.

Soon enough you'll possibly be able to get a CCW for handguns in Chicago if Heller goes positively and residents can pressure the state of Illinois and the city of Chicago to conform to the rest of the nation. Hang in there!

 

[Jamie C.]

I think I'd rather have these than "plastic knuckles":




J.C.

 

[RancidSumo]

How does the roll of pennies work? Do you just hold it in your fist or do you hold it in a more open hand and hit them with what would be your palm?.

 

[Blarelli]

You would be better off having a 4 inch piece of 3/4 inch dowel to punch with.

How does the roll of pennies work? Do you just hold it in your fist or do you hold it in a more open hand and hit them with what would be your palm?.

The idea behind that, and the roll of pennies, is to avoid breaking your hand in the process of hitting somebody.

 

[The Tourist]

Just be careful of the construction materials in these "knuckles." There are many made in wild different colors out of flimsy plastic and sold as "drink coasters."

BTW, they work great for that. They circulate the air under the can and a Coors stays pretty cold.

I'm not about to slug a townie with a drink coaster when I'm wearing Harley boots. YMMV.

 

[proud2deviate]

Re: Roll of pennies.


It increases the mass of your fist, and provides rigidity.

 

[RancidSumo]

I realize that but how do you hold the roll to efectivly hit with it? Or is it just held in your fist and your knuckles do the hitting

Edit-

Proud2deviate answered my question effectivly I think.

 

[proud2deviate]

Pretty much. Just wrap your fingers around it, and punch as you usually would.

EDIT_ Missed the edit

 

[Rubber_Duck]

When I was in high school we called them fistpacks, and basically you would use anything smallish that you can put in your hand and make a fist around. They keep the fingers of your clenched fist from compressing into your palm and possibly injuring yourself. Hope that explains it.

 

[gripper]

fist loads...wrappin gthem in hockey tape helps;but then it looks as though you were "prepping" for the encounter...a hort dowell works ,like was mentioned earlier;and has the added utility for 'hammer fist" type blows.

 

[AndyC]

"What, this little thing, Officer? It's just my keyring ..."

 

[kingpin008]

"What, this little thing, Officer? It's just my keyring ..."

Yeah, until the DA finds the website that sells that little piece of uselessness and brings it up in court.

"You see, your honor - the implement used in the assault on my client is indeed meant to be used as a weapon - and what's worse, it is specifically designed to be a concealed, covert type of weapon! It is my assertion that the defendant not only initiated the attack on my client, but indeed went out that night, with this so-called "keychain" concealed on his person, waiting for an excuse to use it."

 

[Jeff White]

One word...Don't. I convicted a guy for UUW who had made knucks out of plaster cast material. You forgot to read (2).

(2) Carries or possesses with intent to use the same
unlawfully against another, a dagger, dirk, billy, dangerous knife, razor, stiletto, broken bottle or other piece of glass, stun gun or taser or any other dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument of like character;
or

Read the bold part. That can be pretty all inclusive. OC is legal in Illinois and is your best option right now. People have been convicted of UUW for carrying things like long screwdrivers. It's all about intent. Get caught carrying those and I doubt the fact they are plastic will make much difference.

The person I arrested was very sure that since they weren't real brass knukles but were just cloth and plaster of paris, he'd be ok. The judge didn't agree.

Jeff

 

[The Tourist]

James Keating markets something called a "Stinger." If I was going to trust plastic, and I don't, I would presume that Keating probably has tested the product in actual fighting scenarios.

 

[mp510]

In most jurisdictions, plastic knuckles are legally treated the same as metal knuckles.

Even if they did not consider them the same in IL, they have a catch all term in 5/24-1(2)

Carries or possesses with the intent to the same unlawfully against another...or any other dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument of like character

While the paragraph does include verbiage about unlawful use against another, in many other states where they have similarly worded laws- people have been arrested for simply carrying the weapon- since intent might be construed from the simple act of carrying, especially once you say that you have it for striking your fellow man.

 

[roo_ster]

What I carry when I can't "carry" is a Surefire 6P flashlight.

It is innocuous, but solid as heck and serves the purpose of the wooden dowel/roll of coins/brass knucks while being legal...everywhere I can think of to include airplanes.

A metal Cross pen can also do double duty.

Metal carabiners on your belt or luggage.

IOW, a lot of stuf that is more effective, legal, and won't make you look like a hood.

 

[W.E.G.]

I would just go with the power loader and give 'em an atomic wedgie.