Plea for help turns deadly

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Plea for help turns deadly

Parents call teen suicidal, police react to 'threat'

Senta Scarborough
The Arizona Republic
Aug. 26, 2003 12:00 AM


Parents' plea for help for their 15-year-old son, who was holding a kitchen knife and threatening suicide, turned deadly early Monday when Mesa police shot him in front of his family.

Westwood High School junior Mario Albert Madrigal Jr. was shot multiple times in the carport of his home near Dobson and Longmore roads in west Mesa after police said he came toward them with a knife "in a threatening manner."

The boy's parents said their son had dropped the knife after he was shot with a Taser gun moments earlier and was not a threat to officers.

The shooting was strikingly similar to the 2001 death of Ali Altug, 16, shot by a police officer in his Apache Junction kitchen as he wielded a knife.

"I was really literally in shock when I heard. It is so close to what happened here," said Altug's mother, Sande. "How can our society allow that to happen more than once?"

Madrigal's shooting occurred about 1:30 a.m. Monday. His father said he was told by neighbors that his son had consumed six or seven beers.

The officers involved in the Mesa incident were identified as Sgt. Orlando Dean, a 10-year veteran, and Officers Richard Henry and Mark Beckett, who have four and two years on the force, respectively. All three fired their weapons. None was injured and all were placed on paid leave pending investigations, Mesa police Sgt. Mike Goulet said.

Goulet said police were called to the home in the 500 block of South Johnson twice Monday morning.

Police and family versions differed on circumstances leading to the shooting.

Besides police officers, the parents and their 10-year-old son were witnesses.

"They really made a big mistake. I feel the Mesa police department made a criminal action to kill a 15-year old boy unnecessarily," said the father, Mario Madrigal Sr., a U.S. Postal Service worker. "We called for help and they killed him."

Madrigal said his son never threatened officers and was "under control" and started to shake after being shot with a Taser gun when officers started to fire.

"He dropped the knife after the electrical shock," he said. "While he was laying on the floor an officer got close and shot him twice."

Goulet said officers tried to use a Taser gun twice but it was "ineffective."

"He's got the knife and he's advancing toward the officers in a threatening manner. They are telling him to stop and he doesn't obey any of their verbal commands," Goulet said. "He's coming at them regardless of the Taser. At that point they had to discharge their weapons."

Goulet said he did not know how many shots were fired, how far away the officers were or how many times the teen was hit. The investigation is continuing.

Madrigal's father said when he heard the police account, he grabbed a camera, climbed on a neighbor's roof and took his own pictures of the scene, including photos of his son lying dead.

Police first went to the Madrigal home about 12:30 a.m. because the family called 911 when the son and father argued after the teen came home after having "six or seven" beers at a neighbor's home.

"They told us the 15-year-old was involved in a verbal confrontation and had fled," Goulet said. "Officers talked to the family and told them if he returns and there are problems to give them a call."

At 1:13 a.m., 911 got another call from the house.

Madrigal said in a later interview, "I told him (Mario Jr.) that I was going to take him to the crisis center where he can get help to stop drinking alcohol." But, he said, "He took a kitchen knife and says he is going to kill himself and that's when we called police to get help to take him to the crisis center."

About two months ago, Madrigal said police helped take his son to a crisis center to prevent him from drinking alcohol. His son spent six weeks at the center.

"They helped us take him to the crisis center. He was doing very well," Madrigal said. "I was suspecting the same help to take him to that place."

But when police arrived Monday morning, Madrigal said he told police his son was holding a knife and would kill himself.

"My wife opens the door and she was holding my son's hands.

"One of the police officers pushed her away from my son and one of them shot him with an electrical gun," Madrigal said.

"He was already under the effects of the electrical shock when he was on the floor and they started shooting unnecessarily."

His father said the knife was pointing toward the floor.

He said his son spent a lot of time at home, enjoyed fishing, boxing and riding go-carts in the mountains and wanted to join the Army when he graduated.

"He was a normal kid. He was always at home and he would tell us when he wanted to go," said Madrigal. He said his son didn't have a serious drinking problem but he wanted to stop it before it got worse.

In the past two years, about 90 percent of Mesa police have had a four-hour training session on mental illness and retardation to teach officers the signs of mental disabilities and better communicate with those suffering from those conditions, Goulet said.

The Arizona Police Officers Standards and Training Board is developing new training for police academies on the issue and creating an advanced officer training course on dealing with mental illness expected to be taught at departments statewide in nine months.

He was the second Valley civilian shot by police in 24 hours. Phoenix police shot and killed Elias Cabarera, 22, after he shot and wounded two other people at a home on North 50th Drive about 8 p.m. Sunday.



Reporter Brandon Babcock contributed to this article.

Reach the reporter at [email protected] or (602) 444-7937.

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/0826shooting26.html :cuss: :cuss: :cuss:
 
There's a lesson here.

Don't charge a police officer holding a gun with a knife. It gets you killed.
 
The lesson here is: Folks have been conned into depending on the "law" to solve all thier problems. I say reap the rewards of the socialist system youve been conned into depending on.

m16
 
Seems like we have two wildly different stories here. If the parents are to believed then the cops screwed up. If the cops are to believed then they didnt. There is really no way to say who is right or wrong onthis untill more information comes to light. Of course one would wonder why the parents would fabricate a story. Its possible and understandable that they may have misinterpreted events while under considerable stress. One would also wonder why a cop would shoot the kid if he was unarmed and not resisting. The fact is that SOMEONE is either lying or badly mistaken. And without more information its impossible to say who.
 
Many parents can't handle the truth that they raised a violent drug abusing punk. Denial is much easier than fessing up to raising a POS. Part of that denial could be blaming the cops for killing there poor innocent child who would never do anything wrong.
Then again if they are telling the truth, those cops need a good frying.
With such a wild difference in stories the autopsy (bullet entry and exit points) should clear a lot up.
 
I agree with others. Cal the Cops to take care of your "innocent baby." Two sides to this story; hopefully the truth will come up.

Makes you wonder if video cameras will now be standard issue on all uniforms. Kind of like the Marines in "Aliens."
 
Many parents can't handle the truth that they raised a violent drug abusing punk. Denial is much easier than fessing up to raising a POS. Part of that denial could be blaming the cops for killing there poor innocent child who would never do anything wrong.

thats a whole heap full of assumptions. As far as the article goes all we know is that he drank a lot and threatened to kill himself. There could very well be more to it. But, i dont think its safe to assume all that much based on so little information.
 
This P.O.S. was taken by force to a crisis center 2 months ago, where he had a 6-week stay. The father said it was very successful...apparently NOT! It's hard to judge this by the info available now, but I would have to give the benefit of the doubt to the cops at this time.
 
"He dropped the knife after the electrical shock," he said. "While he was laying on the floor an officer got close and shot him twice."

Lawd knows I'm sometimes very crtical of LEOs, but I cannot believe for one second that 3 police officers shot this kid while he was laying on the ground. A tragic loss, no doubt, but methinks the parents are having a serious case of "the blame game" here.
 
"Of course one would wonder why the parents would fabricate a story."

I am not a police officer, nor do I play one on TV. However, in following accounts of police actions and calls, there is a continuing thread that domestic calls are among the most difficult. And when violent action is necessary, the party who called may react negatively towards the police for doing something to their "loved one" who moments ago was a threat to them.

Drawing upon my own experiences with an out-of-control teen-ager, I think the kid may very well have done what the police said and did in fact cause his own death.
 
The smartest thing would seem to be to wait for the inevitable trial. We've got two clear stories, and it will be easy to tell who's lying. If the police really shot the boy as he lay on the ground at close range, the evidence will be undeniable.
 
For any given incident involving n people, there will be n different stories[0] of what exactly happened. All of them will be wrong. People see what they expect to see, and backfill events into a patchy timeline in accordance with what they think "must" have happened.

The parents loved their son, and had known him all his life, and they never feared that he would harm anyone (except, after his declaration of intent, himself). They see him as a harmless and innocent victim who was only reaching out for help.

The responding police knew him not at all, and knew only that he was armed and emotionally unstable[1]. There have been many cases where a person intent on suicide has been thwarted in his initial attempts, because of police response, and has decided to finish the job using an alternative method: suicide by cop.

What is the actual truth of what happened? There's no way to be absolutely sure. The cops' stories are at one end of the continuum. The parents' stories are at the other end. Forensics will probably point to somewhere between the two. The truth is likely somewhere between the two, close to where the forensic report points.

When it comes down to it, though: The boy wanted to be dead. Now he is. The cause of death is clear. Everything else is just an exercise in determining by which method were the boy's desires fulfilled.

-BbecarefulwhatyouwishforP

[0] at least
[1] essentially by definition
 
did I read something wrong......

the father got a video camera and taped the scene ? This guy was really brokenup wasn't he?

Seems like he was immediately more interested in the upcoming trial against the cops than he was about mourning his dead kid.

Anyway, the cops did their job. They stopped the kid from killing himself.
 
As said, way too little info to form an opinion on. But I did notice that in one place Dad say's the son was unarmed, had dropped the knife, and in another part said "the knife was pointed down". Which was it? One, the other, neither? I do agree as already stated that if Dad's version is what happened we'll know soon enough, the physical evidence will be as clear as glass.
 
Parents raised a bad kid.

Bad kid screwed up, fatally.

Parents now looking to collect on their 'investment' via litigation.

Just my intuitions, of course. There's no way any of us can really know from the information given.
 
All my friends keep asking me when I'm going to the academy. I'm not. Reason #1 I don't want to be a cop is domestic calls. :barf:

Reason #2 is all the running and pushups :D
 
Six or seven beers in a 15 year old (depending on his weight and if he consumed food) has the potential to produce a wildly violent 100% blackout
where the kid would kill his own mother and not even remember.


That said..
I've taken knives away from people who were being drunk and crazy.
Maybe I was lucky I didn't get hurt.

Sober people have MUCH faster reaction times than drunks and I find it hard to believe they couldn't disarm him by some other means.

The kid was probably already a total waste anyway but if it were my kid (god forbid) I'd let him stab me in the belly before I called the cops
into my home.
 
I lived in AZ for almost 40 years. I have witnessed the mindset of many of the cops in the Valley.
The mind set is: Kill first, lie about it later. The department investagators will clear me.
This has happened many times in Phoenix, Mesa, Tempe, Scottsdale, Awatuke, ect. And even the AZ Dept of Public Safty has the same attitude.
Usually the dept of the shooting officers will clear them, then the AZ DPS will investigate and clear them, then the familys of the murdered people will sue and it will turn out that they did in fact murder the people. Many law suits have cost the depts millions of dollars in settlement money. But the unnessary killings just keep on happening.

You will notice that in both shootings mentioned in this thread, the dead were of Mexican decent.

In AZ the minority groups outnumber the white groups by a large margin.
But the law enforcement agencys and courts treat them as sub second class citizens.

Having lived in AZ for so many years, I tend to believe the family in this one.
 
Theres a similar story here.......its in a local paper but I can't find a link to it.

In a nut shell.......two PSP Troppers are being sued by a lawyer who makes his living off of suing cops........ for shooting his clients 27 year old son who charged at them with kitchen knives. The Troopers shot him after the male was warned to drop the knives.......failed to do so.......charged the Troopers and got within 7 feet. The homicide was ruled justified by the County DA.

The atty is suing because the dead males civil rights were violated. He also said the Troopers should be able to handle these types of situations without killing. The legal action would seek monetary damages.

Come charging at me with a knife and you won't make it to the 7 foot mark.

Yeah, gimme a few bucks and I'll feel all better. Gimme a break. He (the atty) is a low-life scum who sues, knowing the insurance companies don't want to foot a big bill and will settle. So maybe the familes will get a few bucks.......he's get his grimy paws into it for his share and the family will end up with squat.
 
This incident reminds me of an extremely similar incident in Lawrence KS 10-15 yrs ago. Am. Ind. young man went out drinking w/his dad, got drunk & when at home (lived w/parents) later that night got depressed, got a steak knife & threatened to hurm HIMSELF. Mom calls 911, cops kill kid. Ruled clean shoot/suicide by cop.

Sad, very sad.
 
I remember from my CHL class there is a provision in the Texas lawbooks where you can shoot someone who is about to commit suicide.


§ 9.34. Protection of Life or Health
(a) A person is justified in using force, but not deadly force, against another when and to the degree he reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to prevent the other from committing suicide or inflicting serious bodily injury to himself.

I wonder if the cops were just trying to save the kids life by shooting him.
 
"Yes, Your Honor...I agree that it is unfortunate the all three of us fired at the same time, but we were only trying to save the young man's life."

Sounds good to me!:D
 
"I told him (Mario Jr.) that I was going to take him to the crisis center where he can get help to stop drinking alcohol." But, he said, "He took a kitchen knife and says he is going to kill himself and that's when we called police to get help to take him to the crisis center."

About two months ago, Madrigal said police helped take his son to a crisis center to prevent him from drinking alcohol. His son spent six weeks at the center.


Then Daddy says:

"He was a normal kid. He was always at home and he would tell us when he wanted to go," said Madrigal.


But here's the big winner in the Denial of the Month contest:

He said his son didn't have a serious drinking problem but he wanted to stop it before it got worse.


:rolleyes:

Makes one wonder just WHAT would be a "serious drinking problem" in this idiot's eyes.



Hmm. He was laying on the ground and they shot him? That should show up quite clearly in any fair investigation.

We'll see...
 
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