Please explain why some do not like manual safeties on semi-autos?

[someguy2800]

I am a serial safety forgetter despite being an avid shooter for 20 years. Just ask anyone that has ever duck hunted with me. I never forget to put them on, but I constantly forget to take them off when I'm excited. In spite of thousands of rounds of training I have never gotten over it so I work around my personal shortcoming by using pistols with no thumb safety and a safe trigger system. Either a striker fired pistol with a long takeup and a trigger dongle or a DA/SA with a decocker that has no safe position is my preference.

I have carried pistols with manual safeties such as 1911's, star 9mm's, ruger SR pistols, and a few double action single action pistols and on numerous occasions I've found the safety has either gotten pushed on or off depending on where I left it while in the holster so I would just rather not have one at all. I do a lot of physical work and my guns get bumped and rubbed on stuff. I carried a ruger SR for awhile and just used the strategy of leaving the safety off, but I managed to bump that on a few times in spite of the SR safety being very low profile, so I abandoned that practice and only carry pistols with no safety.

 

[jmorris]

Many don’t know how to hold a pistol correctly so they forget to disengage or engage it while firing.

This guy Is not going to have that problem.



Then again some designs, must have just been an engineer wanting to do something different and turned out so bad people would rather have them without. I have bushels more Glocks than S&W pistols with this type of safety for example...



Let’s make it kind of like they have been for 100 years but make it go the opposite direction...?

 

[someguy2800]

Many don’t know how to hold a pistol correctly so they forget to disengage or engage it while firing.

This guy Is not going to have that problem.

I “ride” the safety on a 1911 or a CZ 75b, but that doesn’t quite work on other designs such as this ruger LC9 where the safety is quite small and far back on the frame.

Let’s make it kind of like they have been for 100 years but make it go the opposite direction...?

Yeah I had a walther PK380 that would throw me for a loop everytime trying to remember which way was which. And on that one the safety only blocked the hammer from hitting the pin so if you got it wrong the trigger still worked and the hammer would clack away to no affect. Terrible design.

 

[bangswitch]

They are hard to disengage in a stressful situation.

That's what practice is for.

 

[tarosean]

Let’s make it kind of like they have been for 100 years but make it go the opposite direction...?

Both types have been around for over 100yrs though.


While I do own a number of those backwards safety guns. I haven’t carried one, nor relied on one for SD in a looong time. The muscle memory has definitely left the building.

The two guns that I use as EDC’s don’t have thumb safeties. However, my nightstand gun does.

 

[bearcreek]

That's what practice is for.

Agreed. What would you suggest then for someone who isn't going to practice?

 

[.308 Norma]

Agreed. What would you suggest then for someone who isn't going to practice?

Prayer?

 

[TarDevil]

What would you suggest then for someone who isn't going to practice?

Sell the gun.

 

[chicharrones]

Agreed. What would you suggest then for someone who isn't going to practice?

A DA/SA centerfire revolver.

 

[bearcreek]

Sell the gun.

I'd agree with that too. Problem is, it's just not realistic to think that most gun owners are going to get rid of their weapons.

A DA/SA centerfire revolver.

Had quite a few of those in classes too. The challenge that many non-mechanically inclined/athletic people had with them was loading with any degree of competence and speed. The other thing, particularly with older ladies, was just the ability to pull the trigger in DA while keeping the gun on target. I found that they had an easier time doing that with a striker fire than a DA. Certainly trade offs with all of these things.

 

[chicharrones]

Had quite a few of those in classes too. The challenge that many non-mechanically inclined/athletic people had with them was loading with any degree of competence and speed. The other thing, particularly with older ladies, was just the ability to pull the trigger in DA while keeping the gun on target. I found that they had an easier time doing that with a striker fire than a DA. Certainly trade offs with all of these things.

At least those people were in a class.

The folks I know that want a gun for protection, but will never be ready to use it, tend to feel okay with SA/DA revolvers. No slides to rack, no magazines to insert, just 6 (or more) cartridges.

The centerfire DA trigger pull is almost always easier than a rimfire DA trigger pull, so as long as the trigger reach is reasonable and the person is strong enough, theoretically they can at least pull the trigger in a last resort situation.

Reloads are hardly a thought for these people, so whatever ammo is in the gun is what there is.

So, it can be the proverbial talisman gun that has a few cylinders fired through it to prove it works, then the other half of the ammo box is expected to last the life of the owner.

Older folks with diminished hand strength need something different.

 

[bearcreek]

At least those people were in a class.

The folks I know that want a gun for protection, but will never be ready to use it, tend to feel okay with SA/DA revolvers. No slides to rack, no magazines to insert, just 6 (or more) cartridges.

The centerfire DA trigger pull is almost always easier than a rimfire DA trigger pull, so as long as the trigger reach is reasonable and the person is strong enough, theoretically they can at least pull the trigger in a last resort situation.

Reloads are hardly a thought for these people, so whatever ammo is in the gun is what there is.

So, it can be the proverbial talisman gun that has a few cylinders fired through it to prove it works, then the other half of the ammo box is expected to last the life of the owner.

Older folks with diminished hand strength need something different.

They were just in the class to meet the state mandated minimum requirements to get a CCW permit. I tried my best both to give students a better base of skills than the legal minimum and to convince students that they should seek out more training and practice. I'm afraid that very few took that advice to heart.

 

[chicharrones]

They were just in the class to meet the state mandated minimum requirements to get a CCW permit. I tried my best both to give students a better base of skills than the the legal minimum and to convince students that they should seek out more training and practice. I'm afraid that very few took that advice to heart.

Understood.

 

[md7]

Personally, I don’t look down or feel some kinda way if a person has a manual safety or if they don’t have a manual safety.

In the end, we all pick our own poison and it behooves us all to practice and train with our selection.

 

[gc70]

Let's be honest that many, if not most, gun owners are probably more likely to mishandle their guns than to have a home invasion and need to fight off attackers. For those people -who will not practice or get training- leaving a gun untouched in a nightstand drawer may be the best probable outcome. And for the few of those people who get carry permits, the best probable outcome may be that the gun is never removed from a good holster when it is toted back and forth between a nightstand drawer and the glovebox or console or a vehicle.

Those of us who frequent gun forums are radically different from the people described above who essentially treat guns as talismans (thanks @chicharrones ). We learn about our guns, practice with them, and often seek extensive training from experts. While we have differing opinions about manual safeties (and firing mechanisms, size, caliber, capacity, etc), each of us has reached our individual conclusions based on our differing personal circumstances.

 

[HB]

I do like a manual safety on my shotgun, however, which I engage while climbing over fences. My grandfather somehow shot the tip of his thumb off while setting his shotgun on the far side of a fence before climbing over.

Do you walk around with the safety off? Leave it off in the blind?

I could take or leave a manual safety on a pistol because it is in a holster. That is not the case with a shotgun…

 

[Charlie98]

Given the odds of actual use for self-defense verses the likely hood of an AD, an extra layer of protection seems like a non brainer.

If a person is counting on brain memory and not muscle memory, they need more training. Hitting targets is hard in stressful situations, too...

My carry piece... pieces, I have 3 of the same pistol... do NOT have manual safeties. Why? Because I've trained enough to see what happens at even a made-up Moment of Truth to see that fine motor skills absolutely disappear when suddenly thrust into a life or death (fight or flight) situation. Gross motor skills for the win... that's the way I see it. For that matter, that's why night sights and stuff like that don't matter to me, either... because I sure as heck won't be able to line up my sights, let alone disengage a safety, at the Moment. Howland has it right.

I don't really agree with the statement that an AD is more likely than having to draw your pistol in self-defense. I HAVE had to draw my weapon in a threatening situation, I have never had an AD... so I don't know where that puts me.

 

[drk1]

When Glocks first appeared many of my customers asked the question: "why doesn't it have a safety?" I explained that it did have "a safety," just not the type they had commonly experienced. They often responded something like "No, no, no, I mean a real safety?" Once again, I patiently tried to explain that it did have a "real" safety. But once again, they'd say "No, no, no, you know -- one of them flip up and down thingies?" I finally explained again that it did have a safety but this one was designed to increase the "donut drop time for police officers, since they wouldn't have to remember to flip that 'up and down thingie.'" That, they seemed to understand.

 

[1nighttrain]

My handgun shooting started with revolvers. When I started carrying SA I had no worries about carrying a weapon without a manual safety. My only handgun with a safety is a 1911. Trigger discipline is still the same with or without a safety.

 

[Old Dog]

They are hard to disengage in a stressful situation.

Good lord, not this again.

Having started in the military with the 1911, forty-plus years combined active duty and law enforcement, transitioned through all manner of handguns with and without manual safeties, taken handguns into some bad places doing serious things, just no. My only problem is with stupid people that don't train or practice handling firearms.

Agreed. What would you suggest then for someone who isn't going to practice?

Don't own a gun, period. Keep a big rock or a sharp stick handy, no safety required.

 

[bearcreek]

Don't own a gun, period. Keep a big rock or a sharp stick handy, no safety required.

I agree. The reality is though that the vast majority of firearms owners practice very little or never and even fewer pursue any sort of training beyond maybe a state mandated CCW course, none of which (that I'm aware of) focus on how to actually use the gun while under stress.

 

[Howland937]

I agree. The reality is though that the vast majority of firearms owners practice very little or never and even fewer pursue any sort of training beyond maybe a state mandated CCW course, none of which (that I'm aware of) focus on how to actually use the gun while under stress.

The bar is set pretty low, intentionally, in a lot of states. 2nd Amendment and carrying for self defense are joined at the hip, so stringent training requirements are viewed as an infringement. Since they're not held to be mutually exclusive, we're always going to have untrained or undertrained folks exercising the same rights highly trained individuals enjoy. Fair is fair.
We don't pay taxes or take intelligence tests at polling places, either.

In the end, everyone has to make their own choices on caliber, format, carry style....and whether they want to dedicate the time and $ to become proficient or not.

 

[HKGuns]

I own both, so I suppose that makes me a "Super-Shorter."

 

[bearcreek]

The bar is set pretty low, intentionally, in a lot of states. 2nd Amendment and carrying for self defense are joined at the hip, so stringent training requirements are viewed as an infringement. Since they're not held to be mutually exclusive, we're always going to have untrained or undertrained folks exercising the same rights highly trained individuals enjoy. Fair is fair.
We don't pay taxes or take intelligence tests at polling places, either.

I am completely opposed to mandatory training for regular folks to carry and I also think that it is very irresponsible of them to do so without getting as good of training as they can afford.

 

[tws3b2]

I am completely opposed to mandatory training for regular folks to carry and I also think that it is very irresponsible of them to do so without getting as good of training as they can afford.

Absolutely amazing how some people would whine, cry and pitch a hissy fit if the gov. or any try to put mandatory regulations on their Constitutional Rights. But would be OK with doing the same to millions of others. No different than left wing wackos. No different at all.