Please help me pick a deer rifle and caliber.

[ChanceMcCall]

I think I'm getting lost here.

Is the real issue the ability to reach out to 200 yards?
I struggled with the idea of using the same rifle to hunt deer and other smaller varmints like ground hogs, but adding rabbits and squirrels makes no sense to me at all if the meat is of any importance.

I know that money is always an issue, but two guns of two calibers makes more sense to me.

 

[Scrumbag]

257 Roberts?

 

[Theohazard]

I was going to suggest a .308 since you're wanting to hunt with a suppressed rifle. I don't think a .243 will have the umph at 200 yds. I think a .308 will barely have the umph if you're shooting subsonics in both calibers.

As I stated in post #10, I have no interest in subsonic ammo. It’s a myth that you need to use subsonic ammo with a silencer. Sure, it makes it even quieter, but in a centerfire rifle subsonic ammo is simply a novelty because of the huge drop in performance. Even my suppressed 300 Blackout SBR is pointless to me with subsonic ammo, other than simply for having fun.

 

[Theohazard]

I think I'm getting lost here.

Is the real issue the ability to reach out to 200 yards?
I struggled with the idea of using the same rifle to hunt deer and other smaller varmints like ground hogs, but adding rabbits and squirrels makes no sense to me at all if the meat is of any importance.

I didn’t say I wanted to hunt rabbits and squirrels. Actually, I specifically said in post #14 that I don’t want to use this rifle to hunt rabbits and squirrels.

Again, I apologize for being unclear in my first post about what specific types of smaller game I want to shoot, but I though I cleared that up in subsequent posts. And maybe groundhogs are too small for a .243; like I said, I’m a hunting newbie. So let’s narrow it down to just deer and coyotes.

I want this rifle to be good for deer within 200 yards, and also be a good coyote rifle. Low recoil and flat-shooting is also a requirement. I think the .243 seems to be the best caliber for choice so far. From the feedback I’ve received here and on TFL, the .243 is perfectly fine for animals like deer, is also a good varmint round, and it fits my other needs also.

The other calibers mentioned seem like they’re better suited for longer ranges and/or larger animals, but wouldn’t be as good for varmints and would have more recoil.

 

[Theohazard]

I pretty much agree with everyone about the .243 being a darn good caliber, but, it seems like you are looking for more info. The best deer rifle caliber I have ever used on white tails at the distances you are describing is the .222 and the Sako is the perfect gun for it. Very accurate ammo and very accurate gun. If you end up going that way, and you are looking for deer and smaller game, you will never be sorry.

My future might entail a move back to WA, and there you can’t hunt deer with any round smaller than .24 caliber.

 

[Choctaw]

I've not hunted deer in Pennsylvania but for our small deer in Texas the .243 is fine for the ranges you describe.

 

[ChanceMcCall]

I didn’t say I wanted to hunt rabbits and squirrels. Actually, I specifically said in post #14 that I don’t want to use this rifle to hunt rabbits and squirrels.

Again, I apologize for being unclear in my first post about what specific types of smaller game I want to shoot, but I though I cleared that up in subsequent posts. And maybe groundhogs are too small for a .243; like I said, I’m a hunting newbie. So let’s narrow it down to just deer and coyotes.

I want this rifle to be good for deer within 200 yards, and also be a good coyote rifle. Low recoil and flat-shooting is also a requirement. I think the .243 seems to be the best caliber for choice so far. From the feedback I’ve received here and on TFL, the .243 is perfectly fine for animals like deer, is also a good varmint round, and it fits my other needs also.

The other calibers mentioned seem like they’re better suited for longer ranges and/or larger animals, but wouldn’t be as good for varmints and would have more recoil.

Then I am back to recommending the .243. It is a great round for what you are suggesting. I do really like the .222 and it would be my first choice for me for your stated purposes, but it has some drawbacks, mostly available guns and also less ammo selection. Since I already have a gun that loads .222, that creates some advantage you don't already have.

Regarding guns, I have a prejudice for Sakos when it comes to bolt action. ( If you insist on American made, look at Montana Rifle Co.)They are consistently more accurate than most of the other production guns. You didn't mention it, but your scope choice will also make a critical difference. In the moderate price range I have had the best luck with Leupould scopes. In the higher priced scopes my preference is Zeiss.

Good Luck!

 

[SoonerMedic]

As I stated in post #10, I have no interest in subsonic ammo. It’s a myth that you need to use subsonic ammo with a silencer. Sure, it makes it even quieter, but in a centerfire rifle subsonic ammo is simply a novelty because of the huge drop in performance. Even my suppressed 300 Blackout SBR is pointless to me with subsonic ammo, other than simply for having fun.

I'm well aware as to what a suppressed rifle sounds like with and without subsonic ammo. But, my point is this. Why make a rifle heavier than necessary when using supersonic ammo? It isn't going to suppress the shot so considerably that you won't need hearing protection.

 

[Theohazard]

I'm well aware as to what a suppressed rifle sounds like with and without subsonic ammo. But, my point is this. Why make a rifle heavier than necessary when using supersonic ammo? It isn't going to suppress the shot so considerably that you won't need hearing protection.

Sorry, I wasn’t trying to insult you, I thought you were pulling out the “you need to use subsonic ammo with a silencer” myth.

I agree that it won’t be medically “hearing safe” (I hate that misleading term), but it will still make a huge difference in the sound of the shot. Enough of a difference that I won’t bother with hearing protection. I currently own four silencers and I’ve shot countless more (and even destroyed two of them in torture tests), so I have a realistic expectation of what this rifle will sound like with a silencer attached. It will be noticeably quieter than an unsuppressed .22 rifle, which is a heck of a lot better than what it will sound like unsuppressed.

And like I said, I might find that the can is just too long and heavy to hunt with and decide not to use it, but I still want the threaded barrel so I have the option.

 

[Theohazard]

@JeeperCreeper: Darn you! I was dead-set on the Ruger Predator until I checked out the TC Compass. I’ve decided on .243 for the caliber, but now both rifles are interesting me and they both come in .243. Here’s the primary differences I see between those rifles:

-The Ruger has a 1:9 twist, the TC a 1:10.

-The TC is a little bit heavier (about a half lb.).

-The Ruger has that wonkey safety lever on the trigger and the TC doesn’t. We have both a TC Venture and a regular Ruger American in the shop, and the trigger on the TC feels a little better to me. I know they both can be adjusted, but I’m not sure I like the lever on the Ruger’s trigger.

-The Ruger accepts AI mags, the TC’s are proprietary.

-At employee pricing, the TC is about $75 cheaper for me.


Here are my main thoughts on those differences:

The weight: Will I notice a half-pound difference in the field?

The trigger: I’ve never actually shot a Ruger. Is the trigger lever no big deal and something I’d quickly get used to?

The twist rate: Is the TC going to properly stabilize the heavier deer loads? Is the Ruger going to spin the lighter varmint loads too fast?

The mags: Is the easy availability of cheap AI-pattern mags in varying capacity a nice feature in a hunting rifle? I know mag availability is a nice feature in my ARs and handguns, but I’m not sure it’s much of an advantage here.

Thanks again to everyone for the help!

 

[stringnut]

Get a 243 and stop worrying. It will do fine from small varmints to deer and 200 yards is well within its capabilities. Depending on the load sighted in around 2 inches high at 100 yards will be on to a bit low at 200 yards. This gives you a dead on hold on any deer or coyote that ever lived from boot tips to around 250 yards or so. Arguing about cartridges is great fun, but, many will usually fill the same nitch. The wife has been using a 250 Savage for more than 30 years. 100 grain bullet at around 2850. Little bit slower and little bit larger in diameter than the 243. Nothing has walked away yet. I had one built a few years ago. Between the 2 probably close to 50 deer and many coons and woodchuck. This isn't to promote the wonders of the 250 Savage. Just wanted to illustrate the fact that something in that performance range will do the job.

 

[JeeperCreeper]

Remember, the T/C has a $75 mail in rebate until April..... I don't need one and I wanna buy one

 

[Loyalist Dave]

See post #14.
And if I come across a situation where I need less power, maybe I will actually need down-loaded rounds. Like I said, I'm a hunting newbie.

Ah well I feel sheepish

I'd say the .243 is a very zippy round..., pretty flat if you're going out a few hundred yards...., what the guys who use a .223 to kill deer are trying to do, is done in the .243 Winchester cartridge, and it will hammer varmints, and a mighty gentle recoil. Go with that.

LD

 

[horsey300]

@JeeperCreeper: Darn you! I was dead-set on the Ruger Predator until I checked out the TC Compass. I’ve decided on .243 for the caliber, but now both rifles are interesting me and they both come in .243. Here’s the primary differences I see between those rifles:

-The Ruger has a 1:9 twist, the TC a 1:10.

-The TC is a little bit heavier (about a half lb.).

-The Ruger has that wonkey safety lever on the trigger and the TC doesn’t. We have both a TC Venture and a regular Ruger American in the shop, and the trigger on the TC feels a little better to me. I know they both can be adjusted, but I’m not sure I like the lever on the Ruger’s trigger.

-The Ruger accepts AI mags, the TC’s are proprietary.

-At employee pricing, the TC is about $75 cheaper for me.


Here are my main thoughts on those differences:

The weight: Will I notice a half-pound difference in the field?

The trigger: I’ve never actually shot a Ruger. Is the trigger lever no big deal and something I’d quickly get used to?

The twist rate: Is the TC going to properly stabilize the heavier deer loads? Is the Ruger going to spin the lighter varmint loads too fast?

The mags: Is the easy availability of cheap AI-pattern mags in varying capacity a nice feature in a hunting rifle? I know mag availability is a nice feature in my ARs and handguns, but I’m not sure it’s much of an advantage here.

Thanks again to everyone for the help!

If you're getting a .243, you want a ruger, savage, Remington, or custom barrel, after a short period, the 10 twist will get old, stay with the faster twists. As for smaller varmints, I blast prairie dogs with mine just fine, and I've taken plenty of rabbits with em, up close we take head/neck shots, out past 100 yds, the right bullets through the ribs still ain't bad, primary choice? No, but don't be scared to place a cautious shot. Either way a 10 twist will accept SOME deer bullets but the 9ish twists will give you MUCH more versatility.

 

[WestKentucky]

Ruger or savage. That trigger is wierd at first, but on a rifle it is really nice once you get used to it. Traditional triggers feel better to newer shooters and they work fine, but the wierd "wonky" trigger actually is an upgrade worth considering. If the TC is cheaper AND you get a rebate too...Hard to justify that significant cost difference.

 

[MCgunner]

257 Roberts?

I mentioned the .257, love mine. I've been shooting it for over 50 years now since my grandpa gave it to me and it's killed many a deer. I don't shoot yotes, but for targets of opportunity, but it flattens 'em. I shoot a 100 grain game king on our Texas deer and it's good to probably 350 yards, though the longest shot on a deer I've made with it is shy of 300. And, it can handle heavier bullets, 117s, if the deer get bigger.

However, I'm a handloader and you REALLY have to be a handloader to squeeze the performance out of the .257 that is possible with it. Not only that, but just FINDING factory loads for it anymore is a hassle. I haven't fired a factory load in that gun in 35 years, but even the "+P" loads that came out in the early 80s were not really close to what you can get out of that cartridge with the right handload.

I figure the .243 is a better deal for this application for the non-handloader. I would never own one because my .257 will do anything the .243 will do and do it better. I consider it a much better deer rifle. But, then, I do handload and have the gun figured out after all these years. That little 100 grain pill steps out at 3150 fps, the 117 Interlock runs 3050 fps. With the 100 grain Game King, it shoots 1/2 MOA.

 

[Bfh_auto]

@JeeperCreeper: Darn you! I was dead-set on the Ruger Predator until I checked out the TC Compass. I’ve decided on .243 for the caliber, but now both rifles are interesting me and they both come in .243. Here’s the primary differences I see between those rifles:

-The Ruger has a 1:9 twist, the TC a 1:10.

-The TC is a little bit heavier (about a half lb.).

-The Ruger has that wonkey safety lever on the trigger and the TC doesn’t. We have both a TC Venture and a regular Ruger American in the shop, and the trigger on the TC feels a little better to me. I know they both can be adjusted, but I’m not sure I like the lever on the Ruger’s trigger.

-The Ruger accepts AI mags, the TC’s are proprietary.

-At employee pricing, the TC is about $75 cheaper for me.


Here are my main thoughts on those differences:

The weight: Will I notice a half-pound difference in the field?

The trigger: I’ve never actually shot a Ruger. Is the trigger lever no big deal and something I’d quickly get used to?

The twist rate: Is the TC going to properly stabilize the heavier deer loads? Is the Ruger going to spin the lighter varmint loads too fast?

The mags: Is the easy availability of cheap AI-pattern mags in varying capacity a nice feature in a hunting rifle? I know mag availability is a nice feature in my ARs and handguns, but I’m not sure it’s much of an advantage here.

Thanks again to everyone for the help!

For me having more than 3 shots available at 1 time has never been necessary. Only 1 time have I needed 3 and it was a pack of coyotes that were in a wide open field.
I prefer my rifle to balance at the front action screw. Correct balance and proper fit are more important than shaving 1/2#. If you shoot it much the trigger won't bother you. I suggest going to a store that has both and see which one fits better.
There are many bullets that will work for deer well outside of the 200 yds you stated earlier.
The 9 twist should work well with the 65 vmax or other varmint bullets near that length. There are so many options that I wouldn't worry.

 

[sixgunner455]

So how do the .243 and 6.5 compare in terms of bullet drop within 200 yards and also in terms of suitably for smaller game? I suck at range estimation and a range finder isn't in my budget at the moment, so a cartridge that's flat shooting within normal hunting ranges is a must for me, especially since I plan to also shoot small game with this rifle. Also, it's my understanding that the 6.5 Creedmoor really shines as a long-range round, but if I'm not planning on shooting it beyond a few hundred yards, will the .243 do the job almost as well on deer and better on small game?

I don't plan to shooting anything bigger than a deer, so no plans for elk. Also, I don't plan to get into reloading at the moment, I just don't have the time. Maybe in a few years.

I also have no need for down-loaded rounds. Silencers still work great with full-powered loads, and subsonic rifle rounds are slooooow and have terrible ballistics.

Thanks everyone for all the suggestions. It seems to me from your feedback that the Ruger is a good choice for my needs, I just need to figure out if the 6.5 Creedmoor is actually a better choice for me than the .243.

The .243 was designed for exactly what you are talking about: deer and varmints with one rifle.

Within 200 yards, the deer won't be able to tell the difference between a 6mm and a 6.5mm bullet, and neither will you. Any high velocity center fire rifle cartridge is, with a proper bullet, going to take a deer with authority and minimal bullet drop at that short of a range.

The last deer I shot was across a canyon at 300 yards. I used a handloaded 100gr 6mm Hornady Interlock Boat Tail Soft Point out of a Savage 11 .243 with a standard 22" barrel. I bracketed his chest with my 300 yard dot on his spine and the 200 yard dot on his brisket, and punched through his on-side shoulder blade and out through his off-side rear ribs. When I got him back in the scope, he was on his side and one leg was twitching. I love the .243, but I wouldn't turn my nose up at a Creedmoor. I chose the .243 over some other rounds because of its common availability and friendly shoulder manners. My daughter, at 16, used it on an elk hunt. We didn't find an elk that year, but she was hitting confidently at 200 yards from field positions. Our guide was confident that she would have had no trouble putting a cow elk down with it.

 

[Speedo66]

You mentioned PA doesn't allow semi-auto's and you defaulted to bolt actions. I'd also throw out Browning BLR lever actions, which I consider one of the best choices for woods hunting. Pick a caliber and have the barrel threaded.

 

[Flintknapper]

You'd be hard pressed to find a better cartridge than the .243 for your needs.

IF you were leaning more towards Deer hunting....then I'd quickly change my mind and suggest the 7mm-08, but since you want it to do double duty, I believe you have already found the best cartridge for that purpose (.243 hands down).

 

[CraigC]

The AR mag .223 American predators are already available. Last I checked, Davidson's had 99 of them.

IMHO, the .243 is a glorified varmint cartridge. The 6.5CM has it all over the .243. The 6.5 is a legitimate dual purpose cartridge. The best premium bullets make the .243 a decent deer rifle, whie they make the 6.5 a good choice for game up to elk. Anything the .243 will do, the 6.5 will do better and with a greater margin of error. What the .243 shoots don't tell you is that they can never take a shoulder or quartering shot. It's full broadside heart/lungs or nothing. The fast twist, heavy bullet-capable 6.5 (or 7mm08/.308) has greater flexibility. Sorry but I'm a real frothing at the mouth .243 hater and find my lovely little Ruger .250Savage is really only viable with premium bullets.

As I stated in post #10, I have no interest in subsonic ammo. It’s a myth that you need to use subsonic ammo with a silencer. Sure, it makes it even quieter, but in a centerfire rifle subsonic ammo is simply a novelty because of the huge drop in performance. Even my suppressed 300 Blackout SBR is pointless to me with subsonic ammo, other than simply for having fun.

Within 100yds, it will kill deer just as dead.

 

[MCgunner]

Anything that'll kill a deer will kill a yote. I've killed a number of 'em with .308.

 

[Theohazard]

OK, so I finally made a decision on what rifle to get. Or, rather, a decision was made for me in the form of an offer I couldn’t refuse.

I was talking to a coworker (I work at an LGS) about the rifle I want to buy (outlined in the first post of this thread), and I mentioned it would be nice if it had iron sights also.

As a Marine who was trained on the M16A2, I’m very comfortable with iron sights. Also, that would mean I wouldn’t need to invest in a scope right away, but I could always get one in the future. Besides, I hear that most deer in this area are taken at 150 yards or less. If I could hit a torso-sized target at 500 yards with my M16A2 with irons, I’ll bet I could take a deer down at 150 yards with irons.

I mentioned to my coworker that I couldn’t find any rifles in .243 that met all my requirements plus had iron sights. I said I liked the Savage Hog Hunter, but it didn’t come in .243. At that point another coworker chimed in and said he had a Savage Hog Hunter .308 for sale.

It’s a rifle he bought new in gunsmithing school as a project gun. He refinished it with a high-gloss blue finish, fit it with a hand-checkered walnut stock, and smoothed the action. I forget how many rounds he said he’d put through it, but I think it’s less than 100. He wanted $325 for it. He said the checkering isn’t the best (it was his first time doing it), but I don’t really care about that.

So we made the deal and shook on it, and I’m going into work on Friday to get it from him. I can’t wait. The main criticisms I hear of the Hog Hunter are a flimsy stock and a rough action. This rifle has neither. Along with the blued finish, it’s got a great classic look to it (he showed me a picture).

I’ll try to post some pictures for you guys when I get it into my hands. How’d you think I did? It’s not in .243, but .308 should still work for my needs and I couldn’t turn down that price. It seems like $325 is a pretty good deal, even if the checkering isn’t the prettiest (it was hard to see the checkering in the picture he showed me).

 

[MCgunner]

You'll love .308 Winchester. It can take about anything in the lower 48, perhaps a bit light for moose, and recoil isn't bad. The caliber is inherently accurate. I also have a Savage 110, though it's in 7 mag. Savage ain't the most refined rifle, but it works and gets the job done. Yours might be a bit special if it's been used as a gunsmithing project.

So, are we gonna get pix?

 

[Geno]

Savage M11 Hog Hunter in .308 Win.

JMHO,

Geno