Plenty of Legitimate reasons to be in a Bar other Than Looking for Trouble

[BigO01]

You know there is a very troubling trend here and on many other forums for members and Moderators to jump to the conclusion that when the words "Bar" and "Armed" comes up in a thread that the Poster lacks any form of good judgement by even considering going into one armed and could need to defend themselves for a completely legal reason and could be completely sober when doing so in a Bar .

These people need to get a reality check , we no longer live in the pre 1970's where the only basic reason to enter a bar is for a person to consumer alcohol , even then there were several reasons for many people to enter one other than to consume alcohol .

An obvious instance is the simple fact that the alcohol doesn't magically materialize at the place . It is deleivered and often by several vendors depending on the variety of products they offer , as one who has worked in places that serve alcohol I can attest to the fact that there can easily be as many as 5 or more deliveries every month just to keep stock of the booze .

Then there is the fact that all of these places will sell various Snacks , ranging from anything as simple as beef jerky and peanuts in a bag to having a mini restaurant that can be as simple as a small grill and a few deep fryers , for Burgers and "Wings" up to just short of a full blown restaurant that just doesn't serve enough food to meet the the Particular State definition of restaurant .

All of these just like the alcohol need goods to serve which again means regular deliveries and all of this doesn't consider the having the usual "Sales Calls" from competeing vendors that want their products in a successfull business .

Then there are all of the common equipment problems that even a simple home owner is subject to , Plumbing , heating and cooling , which in a business also includes the servicing of things like Ice Machines , Soda dispensors , Draft Beer Taps , and filling vending machings like those that sell cigarettes and other things .

For decades now there have been many places that offer recreations that many people participate in and never drink a drop of alcohol , Pool and dart board leagues just to name two then in the summer many places have outdoor areas that even have VolleyBall . Then there is the simple Sports junkies that love to watch their favorite sports on those huge screen televisions they can't afford to have in their homes .

Many years ago I had a neighbor/friend who spent more time in bars than many a drunk yet I never once saw him drink a drop of any alcohol because he came from a family with many members who were drunks and he swore he wouldn't throw his life away like that .

He was a Plumber for Rotor Rooter that worked second shift and worked out of his fully stocked van and would simpley be "Dispatched" to a location via his Pager .
He covered a large service area and hung out in a Bar that was centrally located near the middle of it to save customers time and himself gas money with that large cargo van loaded with tools . I ran into him a few times in the bar because it was a popular place with a coworker of mine I never saw the man drinking a thing except coffee or soda in there .

All of this doesn't take into consideration the workers or owner of the place .

Plenty of business people have a purely professional reason to be in a "Bar" .

Are you realy so arrogent to think that every Baseball or Football fan has to be drunk or looking for trouble and has no right to defend themselves just because they want to watch the World Series or SuperBowl on a bigscreen

If people made these same type of assumptions based on where one lived such as a neighborhood predominately of a certain Race they would be racists .

Just as arresting a sober driver for drunk driving just because his passenger is drunk makes zero sense so does preventing everyone who steps into a bar from lawfully carrying a weapon for self defense .

What if you had been of legal drinking age in your home and just drank a few Beers and your home is broken into by a Violent criminal and you defended yourself with a gun are you suppose to be considered guilty of a crime for being under the influrence when you used deadly force or will the criminals actions be the determining factor in determining if you used deadly force legally ?

If in our legal system one is suppose to be considered innocent untill proven guilty , don't we deserve the same protection for the ability to make a decision when we make a life or death one until it is proven that we were some how impared rather than where we were standing ?

Can the cops arrest you because you're drunk in a bar with your car parked outside ? No they have to wait till you actually drive it while drunk after all for all they know you could be calling a cab to get home .

It's long past time to stop making Laws that assume what one may or may not do .

 

[Biker]

Good Lord, Common Sense rears its ugly head. Well said, Big001.

Biker

 

[DammitBoy]

A bar is usually a place full of drunk stupid people, some of whom have lost what few inhibitors they had when they walked into the place.

The potential for violence and general stupidity is high.

A smart person avoids places like that.

 

[outerlimit]

So you're a monk and you've never been in a bar or any place dangerous at all. That's great for you, but doesn't work for 99.9% of the rest of us.

 

[THE DARK KNIGHT]

I will proudly admit that my primary reason for entering a bar is to raise my BAC as high as possible while consuming large amounts of food before passing out in my car outside after several hours of that.

That said, I wouldn't carry in a bar if I could.

 

[armsmaster270]

There are still reasons to be armed in a bar such as designated driver. In CA there is no law against being armed in a bar or drinking as long as you can pass a blood test if you use it to stop deadly force. When I drink my self imposed limit is one drink and that is only twice a month max.

 

[outerlimit]

I will proudly admit that my primary reason for entering a bar is to raise my BAC as high as possible while consuming large amounts of food before passing out in my car outside after several hours of that.

Be careful, they call that "Drove in or actual physical control" in this State and it's similar to a DUI. It's a stupid law, but I just wanted to warn you about it in case they have that where you live.

 

[rainbowbob]

...the criminals actions [should] be the determining factor in determining if you used deadly force legally...

Sometimes I go to bars.

Sometimes I have a few drinks.

I NEVER initiate confrontations, nor do I turn into a homicidal maniac.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Good advice, from the man who is probably the dean of defensive firearms instruction in the US, since Jeff Cooper passed on:

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/2003/19Mar03.html

19 Mar 03

Layers of response:

Years ago, Jeff Cooper delineated the "Color Code" and the "Principles of Personal Defense" in an effort to provide us with a logical model for one's thinking on the subject of mental preparedness. I'd like now to go to the next step and apply the same logic to the issue of personal appearance and demeanor, as we all agree that, in the domestic defensive environment, avoiding a fight is preferable to winning one.

Layer One: Nonattendance. The best way to handle any potentially injurious encounter is: Don't be there. Arrange to be somewhere else. Don't go to stupid places. Don't associate with stupid people. Don't do stupid things. This is the advice I give to all students of defensive firearms. Winning a gunfight, or any other potentially injurious encounter, is financially and emotionally burdensome. The aftermath will become your full-time job for weeks or months afterward, and you will quickly grow weary of writing checks to lawyer(s). It is, of course, better than being dead or suffering a permanently disfiguring or disabling injury, but the "penalty" for successfully fighting for your life is still formidable.

Crowds of any kind, particularly those with an agenda, such as political rallies, demonstrations, picket lines, etc are good examples of "stupid places." Any crowd with a high collective energy level harbors potential catastrophe. To a lesser degree, bank buildings, hospital emergency rooms, airports, government buildings, and bars (particularly crowded ones) fall into the same category. All should be avoided. When they can't be avoided, we should make it a practice to spend only the minimum time necessary there and then quickly get out.

"A superior gunman is best defined as one who uses his superior judgment in order to keep himself out of situations that would require the use of his superior skills."

Layer Two: Functional invisibility. We all need to practice to art of "being invisible." It is in our best interest to go our way unnoticed, both by potential predators and by the criminal justice system alike.

Whenever I travel, particularly to foreign countries, I endeavor to be the one that no one notices; no one recalls; no one remembers. I silently slip through the radar, leaving no trace, a nameless, faceless tourist. When in any public place, I try to be clean and well groomed, but I never wear bright colors, any kind of jewelry, or anything shiny. I smile a lot, but talk softly and as little as possible. As we say in the law enforcement business, "Courteous to everyone. Friendly to no one."

Loud talking, bright colors, Rolex watches, etc will consistently accumulate unwanted attention. On the other end of the spectrum, tattoos, poor grooming, loud and offensive language, a slovenly appearance, etc will also garner unwelcome notice.

Layer Three: Deselection. Any successful predator has the ability to quickly screen potential victims, focusing in on the ones who look as if they will make good victims and rejecting those who either (1) look too strong for expedient victimization or (2) don't conveniently fall into any particular category.

When invisibility fails, we need endeavor to be consistently deselected for victimization. We do this by making it a habit to appear alert, uninviting, self-confident, and strong. At the same time, we never loiter or appear indecisive. We are always in motion.

"Weakness perceived is weakness exploited!"

Layer Four: Disengagement: Our best interests are not served by any kind of engagement with potential predators. Successful disengagement involves posturing, bearing, verbalizations, and movement. It is in our best interest to disengage at the lowest reasonable force level, but we must simultaneously be prepared to instantly respond to unlawful force with superior force.

Potential predators, as they attempt verbal engagement, should be politely dismissed. Bearing and eye contact should always project strength and confidence. We should continuously be moving off the "line of force." We should be observant in every direction, giving potential predator duos and trios the distinct impression that they will not be able to sneak up on us.

When predators are confused, they are unable to focus sufficiently to carry off their victimization. Therefore, never let a potential predator seize the agenda. Don't answer his questions, and don't stay in any one place very long.

Disengagement, separation, and exit are our immediate goals when we have been selected or are being seriously evaluated by predators. However, if there is to be a fight, the best one is a short one. If a predator menaces me with a gun or a knife, I know that, before it is all over, there is a good chance that I will be shot or cut. However, within that prison of circumstance, I also know that the faster I can end the fight, the less hurt I'm going to get! If there must be a fight, I must explode into action, moving smoothly and quickly, in an effort to confuse and overwhelm my opponent before he has a chance to process all the information I'm throwing at him.

Ultimately, we must "have a plan." Potentially dangerous encounters must be thought about in advance. Decisions must be made. Skills must be practiced. Confusion, hesitation, and vacillation will always attract the attention of predators and simultaneously stimulate predator behavior.

/John
==========================

Like most advice, good or bad, it's free. And anyone who reads it is free to follow it, or not.

Look- no one appointed me the Miss Manners of the concealed carry set. If anyone tried, I wouldn't take the job. Anyone who wants can carry anything they want, anywhere they want, and do anything they want with it.

Yes, it might look bad for the 'home team' when someone makes the news for breaking the law while armed, or violating common sense while armed, and gets busted for it. The antis will have a field day. Whoever got busted, won't. The good guys will look bad.

If it's legal to carry in a bar in your state- no problem.

It isn't, where I live.

If it's legal to carry in a place where people pay admission to get into where you live, no problem.

It isn't, where I live.

In short, I don't know the law where you live. Since I don't live there, I don't have to worry about it.

But people who live there do have to worry about it. And if I visit where you live, I will have studied the concealed carry laws there before I arrive, because I'll be carrying a gun. If I can't carry legally, I most likely won't be visiting. No, I'm not kidding.

Every member here WILL keep in mind, however, that THR does not allow the endorsement of illegal behavior. Let us all be very clear on that fact.

Let us also be clear on the fact that the standards for behavior are higher in S&T even than in the rest of THR. And S&T is not Legal. The laws are what they are. We can discuss following the law all day long, but complaints of 'they shouldn'ta oughta' are not going to go over very well here or anyplace else on THR.

lpl

 

[rbernie]

A bar is usually a place full of drunk stupid people, some of whom have lost what few inhibitors they had when they walked into the place.

The potential for violence and general stupidity is high.

Sometimes yes, and sometimes no. Sometimes it's a neighborhood bar with a steady and known clientele. Sometimes it's a suburban/urban meatmarket. Sometimes it's a meeting place for masses of random folk to blow off a lot of extra steam - think dance club or the like. Sometimes the clientele is reserved (and usually older). Sometimes the clientele is more aggressive (and usually younger).

I tend to avoid the sports bars and meatmarkets in general (armed or not), but have no quarrels with neighborhood bars. In fact, during my clubbing days I tended to gravitate towards the small local hole-in-the-wall strip clubs simply because they were the epitome of laid-back, and lacked the hormone-fueled drama of the other bars in the area.

Being street-smart is more about learning to read the attitude and emotion and the makeup of the crowd than it is about generalizing locations.

 

[Grey_Mana]

I agree with you, but I think you misunderstand their thinking:

'Looking for trouble' is toward one end of the spectrum of personal responsibility. The principle of mutual combat is important, and it overlaps with 'looking for trouble' on that spectrum of personal responsibility.

The issue isn't just about the armed person being sober or drunk, it is mainly about protecting the drunks. Bars, like collegiate sporting events, have an attendant risk of non-life threatening violence. Most violence in bars doesn't justify shooting in self-defense. An armed person is more capable of disproportionate response in the eyes of the law (ie shooting back instead of taking a beating). States that ban guns in bars do so because they value the many drunks over the few sober people.

 

[android]

A bar is usually a place full of drunk stupid people, some of whom have lost what few inhibitors they had when they walked into the place.

The way a person behaves in a particular situation tends to shape their view of how they believe others will behave in a similar situation and is not really an accurate way to determine such.

For example, some people would give up and scream we're all going to die when crashing a jet airliner into the Hudson River and can't even imagine this could be handled in a calm and professional manner.

 

[hso]

There's a wide range of what people can call "bars". As rbernie pointed out a "bar" may be a rough place with lots of violence associated with it all the way to a TGI Fridays that has a bar with the restaurant.

Know the law, know the environment. Comply with the law and avoid those places where risk of violent encounters are higher. If you can't avoid them be sure to stay sharp so you can assess the environment for threats.

 

[BBQLS1]

I feel that in most instances a law abiding gun owner is just that. I think everyone here has to admit, that it's the drunks that would be the problem.

 

[Deanimator]

I think everyone here has to admit, that it's the drunks that would be the problem.

And in my experience, drunks INVARIABLY want to make their problems YOUR problems.

I avoid bars because bars attract drunks. Drunks attract trouble.

You can be your normal, polite self in a crack house. It's still a crack house.

When Ohio changes its laws to allow carry into a liquor serving restaurant, I will carry into them and not drink. I still wouldn't carry into (or for the most part, visit) bars, whether I could carry or not.

 

[chuckusaret]

A bar is usually a place full of drunk stupid people, some of whom have lost what few inhibitors they had when they walked into the place. The potential for violence and general stupidity is high. A smart person avoids places like that.

With that said you can see why I say I was born in Biloxi but left the state as soon as possible to never return.
Most of the bars in SE Florida serve the best foods around and I have never seen any drunken brawls in the 30 years I have lived here. There are only three bars similar to what the OP says are the norm in his town within 10 miles of my house and none of them have problems as he speaks of. I like to think that it is because we have a different understanding of what is the normal expected conduct of a person in a public establishment.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Almost all of the time, pretty much anything I can do in a bar other than drink I can do just as well or better somewhere else. And if I'm armed, I won't drink.

 

[rainbowbob]

I NEVER initiate confrontations, nor do I turn into a homicidal maniac.

...drunks INVARIABLY want to make their problems YOUR problems...You can be your normal, polite self in a crack house. It's still a crack house.

That is a very good point. You DO need to be selective about the kinds of places you frequent. As others pointed out, the term "bars" covers a wide variety of venues.

I have to wonder where these 'buckets of blood' type joints that so many are so worried about are.

In my town there ARE joints that a normal person would be insane to visit, but somehow manage to stay in business. Apparently around here, it's not considered politically incorrect to close down hip-hop establishments, regardless of the of the crack dealing, gang disputes, and shootings.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

I have to agree with the OP. Bars don't automatically become dangerous places just because people are, or may be, drinking.
And, wherever you go you should have the right to defend yourself. Likewise, if you're going to act like a jerk and imperil the health and safety of others because you weren't breast fed long enough, then you deserve to have to consider that maybe everyone in there is armed too.

I'm not a fan of bars. I'm not a fan of drunks. I'm not a fan of bars with drunks. However, I agree that not all are just a social land mine waiting to be tripped.

Seems like the more dangerous places we hear about on here are parking lots and homes. Lots of "So, there I was..." threads regarding those places and scant few detailing bar brawls.

 

[unloved]

Hmmmm. Strange. Just wondering why my previous post in this thread was 'disappeared'.

 

[ilbob]

Hmmmm. Strange. Just wondering why my previous post in this thread was 'disappeared'.

perhaps it was considered to be in violation of the rules.

 

[mljdeckard]

Frankly, I don't know what you're talking about.

The mods in here always absolutely tell people to follow the law. In most states it's illegal to carry into a bar.

In my state, it's legal to carry in a bar, it's legal to drink, it's illegal to be intoxicated when you carry. The standard for intoxicated is the same as the standard for driving, .08.

Bars vary. Some are perfectly safe, some are places where people obviously go to be able to do things they wouldn't normally do in public. Staying safe transcends whether or when you are carrying. You must ALWAYS maintain situational awareness and use your judgement to stay away from unsafe places.

 

[easyg]

A bar is usually a place full of drunk stupid people, some of whom have lost what few inhibitors they had when they walked into the place.

The potential for violence and general stupidity is high.

A smart person avoids places like that.

I don't find this to be true at all.

Most bars are not full of drunk stupid people.
The hardcore drunks don't get smashed at the bar because it's too damn expensive.
It's much cheaper to get smashed at home or at a house party.

And the potential for violence is not usually that high either since the bar owner has no financial interest in seeing his bar wrecked.

Wild house parties are much more dangerous than bars in my opinion.
No security, free booze by the gallons, no rules....

I'm a radiographer in a rather large hospital, and it's very seldom that I see folks who have been in a bar fight.
But I see folks who have been in fights at house parties nearly every weekend.


Easy

 

[NMGonzo]

I go to restaurants that happen to have a bar.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

My guess is that there are a goodly number of people who make very poor decisions about where they opt to have drinks ... if they are in places that apparently involve a goodly amount of violence.

Never been in a bar fight. Never seen a bar fight in any of the places where I drink or used to drink.