Pocket .25 Automatic

[starling]

A difference of opinion, maybe it's the same magazine for both.

If either can use it, please PM me with your mailing info.

Same pistols. The Tangfolio Titan 25acp was a popular import before 68 through EIG. Then after the ban on iddy biddy pocket autos FIE out of Florida made USA frame from Zamak and imported the parts kits for assembly in the USA to get around restrictions. Tallbell is also right in that there were different names associated with these FIE, Targa, Excam etc. Tanfoglio has had lots of importers through the years.

The pistols themselves are pretty decent while they last. Not as durable as something like a Raven. The Zamak frames on the Tanfoglios have a couple weak points and like to crack at the barrel pin holes (two pins hold the barrel to the frame). Unlike the Raven (or other raven copied designs) the Tanfoglio has slide rails in the frame and the Steel slide on the Zamak slide rails tend to eat the rails so some stoning on the steel rails (roughly machined) is good practice if you are going to shoot them a lot. The steel used on the Titans is also pretty soft so you have to watch out for peening in some areas. Titans are kind of the budget guns of Italy. The 32 and 380 titans also have most of these issues. The 380s in particular (which have steel frames) also like to crack (around the barrel pin holes) and can peen.

Not bad little guns if you can get around all the quirkiness though and use them in the shoot a little and carry mode. They are reliable with ball ammo. I have carried them on occasion. Pretty thin and just big enough to fire and manipulate under stress. Safety wise they are not to bad. Single action with a half cock. I never carry one with a round in the chamber but some do (useing the half cock as a safety). The manual safety is the Beretta 1934 style which just blocks the trigger....I wouldnt depend on something like that with a small pocket pistol. Not sure how prone they would be to going off if dropped and landing on the hammer. There is no firing pin safety block on these.

They are what they are. For me the Raven is a better design which sounds kind of silly. The Ravens dont have slide rails to eat away not are the barrels pinned to the frame. There are also no thin zamak areas on the raven (thin and Zamak dont get along well). The ravens are a little bigger and fatter though. Ravens also have a better extraction system (if thats important to you on a blowback 25acp). The success of the Raven and the numbers produced and sold is largely a result of that 1968 ban. People still wanted pocket guns but the imports stopped coming in. Resulting in a bunch of American pistol manufacturers opening up shop and producing innexpensive Zamak pocket guns for the common man/woman to have an option for self protection. They were $50 pistols for a long time. Seemed like everyone had a little raven 25 back in the 80s and 90s. I got turned onto them by my FFL/machinist/gunsmith/builder who was anything but a gun snob. He carried Colts and Berettas but would also praise a lot of these innexpensive pistols as being excellent and well thought out designs regardless of any of the negativity that surrounded them (mostly political bait people fell for back then).

 

[starling]

Tallball

The noted gunsmith and writer J.B. Wood in his book "Troubleshooting Your Handguns" wrote the Titan .25 automatic was designed and built by Tanfoglio Giuseppe Fabbrica d'Armi of Italy. With passage of the GCA of 1968 the finished guns could no longer be imported into the U.S. After this a company called Excam began importing all the parts, minus the frame (which was being made in the U.S.), to build the gun in this country. The name of the gun was also changed to Targa Model GT 27.The frame was made from a non-ferrous alloy (most likely Zamak), while the slide, barrel, and most internal parts were steel.

The author then goes on to point out numerous deficiencies with the design and construction of the gun. Some examples:

"During takedown, when the recoil spring unit is removed, the safety lever can fall out and be lost all too easily".

"There are several points in this design that appear to be manufacturing shortcuts and not entirely desirable ones".

"The ejector is an integral part of the sear. If the ejector is broken, the entire part must be replaced'.

"The disconnector is an upper arm of the trigger bar. Fitting is rather crude and often must be refitted. On a few that I have seen the work was so crude that the disconnector had to be refitted for proper operation".

"The magazine catch is of alloy, not steel. The front tip breaks with some frequency".

"The grips, of thin plastic, with a single stabilizing stud on the lower inside edge, are also prone to breakage".

One thing he did find that was decent about the gun was the magazine:

"The magazine, on the other hand, is strong and nicely made".

Nice post...thank you.. Dont think I ever saw that article. I have not run into all these issues but I have some. His analysis was pretty spot on. They are a bit quirky and deffinitly not high volume shooters IMO. Not really something that would do well in a torture test, run over with a truck, throw 100 feet and drop in a tub of acid type you tube video either. For innexpensive pocket 25s I have seen worse though. Yes the grips can be annoying as they are single screw with a small peg for stability. They like to shift once that little peg snaps. They are what they are. FIEs attempt to compete with the American Zamak pocket pistol manufacturers which sold in huge numbers.

Ravens would most likely still be produced today but I believe a fire had happened in the manufacturing plant at Pheonix arms and the tooling was destroyed. Be nice if they brought them back eventually with a polymer frame to reduce weight. The Lorcin LT25 (Close Raven copy) had an aluminum frame and were very light and handy carry wise. They were slide crackers though as the Aluminum frame was too hard on the slide even for 25acp. They also did not have proper rifling to stabalize the bullet (keyhole is common) but thats another story. A polymer frame ultralight Raven 25 would be a nice little affordable pocket gun.

 

[Shivahasagun]

I think all of this mouse gun drama perfectly illustrates why the revolver remains an extremely viable self defense option.

Absolutely.

 

[starling]

I think all of this mouse gun drama perfectly illustrates why the revolver remains an extremely viable self defense option. You can just get a j frame in .22 rimfire and if the ammunition fails to go bang, you can just immediately squeeze the trigger again and move on to a fresh round. IMO, the main purpose of these guns is as a left/weak handed BUG to be used when someone is right on top of you and somehow preventing you from drawing your primary strong side weapon. So, in that situation, you don't want to be fumbling with any kind of a safety or a malfunction. I have a J frame in .357 mag that would be quite suitable in this role as well and a superfly on the way so that may just be my ultimate solution.

I'll have to put some thought into that Tomcat before I shoot it. The Seecamp, on the other hand, is nice because it is so small and it has had an excellent reputation in the past but it seems like newly produced Southwick guns may not be built to the same standards as the older Milford and .380 may just be too much to ask of such a little gun. I will shoot that one and see what happens though and, if I have to, I'll buy another one of the older models in .25 or .32 and see if that's better. I will probably do that regardless.

I dont normaly carry a 25acp much anymore but once in a while I will grab one. Main purpose these days is just fun plinking with a small pistol. Back when these were popular the options were very limited for very small autoloaders with larger calibers that were light enough to pocket carry. The first major one I can remember was the Grendel 380s but those had quirks as well sometimes. Accu-tek 380s were very small 5+1 not much bigger than Ravens but often needed a LOOOOT of work due to sloppy manufacturing (new versions are better but not as small) and heavy like the AMT backups. As far as 9mms go we are pretty spoiled now with all the micro 9s. Those basically didnt exhist until the Keltec P11. The Detonics Pocket 9mm was a beast to carry or shoot.

As far as Rimfire goes I have trouble depending on them for anything given other options outside of cheap range or plinking use. Be nice if someone produced a truely downsized DA 22lr (or 25acp and 32acp) revolver similar to the old RG revolvers. Those were handy and small until they wore out.

where 25acp if failing us right now is ammo costs. It was not long ago that you could buy bulk ammo in the $14 per 50 rounds range. These days you have to go with 22lr. My son shoots his Jennings J22 in 22lr more than his Raven. Hopefully it will turn around eventually. I believe it will. Its pretty rare that people dont enjoy shooting 25acp pocket autos. Almost all of them work well and being simple blowbacks they are typically extremely and stupid reliable. Fixed barrels also give great accuracy assuming there is good rifleing.

Those 380 seecamps are not real fun to shoot for me. The 32 is not all that fun either. 25 might be fun. Very neat pistols though...small and quality. Fun factor the best 25 I ever shot would have to be the Walther TPH. Its a shame they are not more common and affordable. Those are practically works of art for a 25acp and make everything else seem clunky.. even Berettas or Seecamps. One of these days I might track one down.

 

[aaaaa]

Yeah...I just bought that Tomcat yesterday. It's such a good looking pistol and it seems like it would be a great pocket pistol but... I really hope it works out. I bought a Seecamp 380 yesterday too and I'm feeling the same way about it. Hopefully one or both of these guns will surprise me and make the cut but I'm already having doubts when I get a card with the Tomcat telling me I have to use ammunition that is 130 ft/lbs of energy or less and people are all talking about the slide cracking and then the Seecamp forum is full of people complaining about their new Seecamp pistols doing bad things. Between ammunition unavailability and expense and the inability of modern firearm manufacturers to produce a reliable autoloading handgun, the search for the perfect autoloading pocket pistol seems like a potentially expensive and frustrating exercise. I may have to look into the Jetfire as I see it getting more favorable commentary. Does it digest any .25 ACP that you can find on the shelf?

I'll traded my Seacamp .32 in for a Tomcat .32 and am quite happy with it. Not using it for carry. If I do a backup gun carry it will be the smaller and quite functional Kel Tec P32.

 

[aaaaa]

Don't dry fire your Tomcat or any tip-up small Berettas without an O-ring or something to catch the hammer. If not you'll eventually break the firing pin retaining pin and/or firing pin. If it gets abused it breaks and hits you in your eye protection while you're shooting. (Done that)

Watch those sharp points on the Tomcat slide, they'll bleed you.

O-ring is a nice idea. I use snap caps to protect the firing pin. With the O-ring you won't have the snap cap to fly out every time you flip the barrel. May have to give it a try.

I was wondering if one were to slightly file off those points would it affect the function of the gun? I am thinking small, like 1 mm off the point.

 

[Shivahasagun]

O-ring is a nice idea. I use snap caps to protect the firing pin. With the O-ring you won't have the snap cap to fly out every time you flip the barrel. May have to give it a try.

I was wondering if one were to slightly file off those points would it affect the function of the gun? I am thinking small, like 1 mm off the point.

I did file them more blunt. I didnt get cut again and it effects nothing as far as operation.

 

[aaaaa]

I did file them more blunt. I didnt get cut again and it effects nothing as far as operation.

I'll be doing a little bit of filing tonight!

I think the points are there for aesthetics only.

 

[Shivahasagun]

I'd like to mention that the ignition system in all of the Beretta tip-up guns is pretty good.

If you have a misfire (and don't have a broken firing pin) you can bet it's the ammo, not the gun. I've never had one of these guns fail to ignite a center primer. The M21A's and M3032's use the same hammer springs, strut, and hammer, IIRC.

I have a Keltec P32 with 1200 rds through it. It will rim lock on jhp but it's never failed to cycle ball ammo. It has had misfires on harder primers like CCI and S&B. Even on a fresh recoil and striker spring.

Crazy how the $200 cheap feeling P32 has ran so well without breaking and the $4xx Beretta Tomcat didn't, broke the frame, then broke the slide.

 

[starling]

I'd like to mention that the ignition system in all of the Beretta tip-up guns is pretty good.

If you have a misfire (and don't have a broken firing pin) you can bet it's the ammo, not the gun. I've never had one of these guns fail to ignite a center primer. The M21A's and M3032's use the same hammer springs, strut, and hammer, IIRC.

I have a Keltec P32 with 1200 rds through it. It will rim lock on jhp but it's never failed to cycle ball ammo. It has had misfires on harder primers like CCI and S&B. Even on a fresh recoil and striker spring.

Crazy how the $200 cheap feeling P32 has ran so well without breaking and the $4xx Beretta Tomcat didn't, broke the frame, then broke the slide.

P32 frame can handle 380acp. Beretta Tomcat not so much. I would predict 380acp would kill a Tomcat in very short order. Its all about design and materials used. As cool at the tip ups are from a design standpoint they are kind of outside the box and funky. Doesnt mean they are not nice..... just different. Its a real shame Beretta never came out with the Pico in 32acp. Also a shame they discontinued the Pico in 380acp. Those pistols had some serious potential for a pocket auto and Beretta seems to have abandoned the whole concept..... for now.

 

[aaaaa]

I'd like to mention that the ignition system in all of the Beretta tip-up guns is pretty good.

If you have a misfire (and don't have a broken firing pin) you can bet it's the ammo, not the gun. I've never had one of these guns fail to ignite a center primer. The M21A's and M3032's use the same hammer springs, strut, and hammer, IIRC.

I have a Keltec P32 with 1200 rds through it. It will rim lock on jhp but it's never failed to cycle ball ammo. It has had misfires on harder primers like CCI and S&B. Even on a fresh recoil and striker spring.

Crazy how the $200 cheap feeling P32 has ran so well without breaking and the $4xx Beretta Tomcat didn't, broke the frame, then broke the slide.

Remarkable that P32. And I don't know that they have any ammo restrictions. I don't plan to run HP in my P32 and in that caliber, the general advice I see is get FMJ for penetration. I run the PPU FMJ and so far it works great. Only jam I have had is when I bumped the mag release. I do like the location of the mag release on the Tomcat, it is unlikely to get bumped. Tomcat doesn't need a safety with the DA trigger first shot unless you load by racking then you are in SA. I was less inclined to buy the Tomcat because of the safety but when I saw it in the GS and held it in my hand I was hooked, and when I found out they would take my Seacamp in trade I was sold.

The Seacamp is a great gun but I think it might work better for someone with smaller hands. It always banged my finger and it was very sassy to shoot. I had lots of jams until my fifth range trip with PPU ball ammo and the mag spacer removed--this may have been purely a matter of learning to hang on to it, what little there is to hang on to (1.5 fingers on grip), so the limp wrist effect, hence smaller hands may work better.

PPU ball is a tad shorter than most ball for the .32 and will fit the Seacamp mag with the spacer removed. Other ball may not. I had Fiocchi and some would fit, some would not. There was about 1/2 mm variation in OAL. As I rrecall he PPU is about 24.5 mm and the spec is 25 mm.

Oh wait, this is a .25 ACP thread, but I guess the .32 ACP is its big brother and some of these guns come in either caliber, so....

 

[Shivahasagun]

P32 frame can handle 380acp. Beretta Tomcat not so much. I would predict 380acp would kill a Tomcat in very short order. Its all about design and materials used. As cool at the tip ups are from a design standpoint they are kind of outside the box and funky. Doesnt mean they are not nice..... just different. Its a real shame Beretta never came out with the Pico in 32acp. Also a shame they discontinued the Pico in 380acp. Those pistols had some serious potential for a pocket auto and Beretta seems to have abandoned the whole concept..... for now.

I bought a new Pico about 2 years ago. Had some stoppages with Fiocchi fmj and it shot really low.

The shape seemed ok until I fired it. Then I felt the shape was wrong and texture almost non existent. Sold it with disclosure after about 150 rds IIRC.

 

[Shivahasagun]

Remarkable that P32. And I don't know that they have any ammo restrictions. I don't plan to run HP in my P32 and in that caliber, the general advice I see is get FMJ for penetration. I run the PPU FMJ and so far it works great. Only jam I have had is when I bumped the mag release. I do like the location of the mag release on the Tomcat, it is unlikely to get bumped. Tomcat doesn't need a safety with the DA trigger first shot unless you load by racking then you are in SA. I was less inclined to buy the Tomcat because of the safety but when I saw it in the GS and held it in my hand I was hooked, and when I found out they would take my Seacamp in trade I was sold.

The Seacamp is a great gun but I think it might work better for someone with smaller hands. It always banged my finger and it was very sassy to shoot. I had lots of jams until my fifth range trip with PPU ball ammo and the mag spacer removed--this may have been purely a matter of learning to hang on to it, what little there is to hang on to (1.5 fingers on grip), so the limp wrist effect, hence smaller hands may work better.

PPU ball is a tad shorter than most ball for the .32 and will fit the Seacamp mag with the spacer removed. Other ball may not. I had Fiocchi and some would fit, some would not. There was about 1/2 mm variation in OAL. As I rrecall he PPU is about 24.5 mm and the spec is 25 mm.

Oh wait, this is a .25 ACP thread, but I guess the .32 ACP is its big brother and some of these guns come in either caliber, so....

No stated restrictions with the P32 other than JHP/short ammo (will rimlock), test ammo for harder primers, and don't run anything advertised as ".32+p". Why? Just because it is of light-duty construction. Look at the barrel, (very thin), slide, (tiny), frame (little polymer rails), recoil springs (tiny).

IMO the gun will wear out more quickly, break, or jam with this hot stuff.

Fiocchi 73 gr got 850 fps from my gun. American made stuff is around 750 fps.

My Berettas give 700-750 fps with 50 gr ball but .25's can handle more. 850 fps is not near overpressure.

 

[starling]

I bought a new Pico about 2 years ago. Had some stoppages with Fiocchi fmj and it shot really low.

The shape seemed ok until I fired it. Then I felt the shape was wrong and texture almost non existent. Sold it with disclosure after about 150 rds IIRC.

Agreed. The grip was too short but the placement of the controls and quality of the build was great. Beretta was so set on making it small they left out the grip ergos. Being a modular pistol with a steel subframe a simple new mold for the grip and maybe +1 longer magazine tube would have made it more favorable. Shooting low might have been a result of the DAO trigger. My Keltec p11s shot like that until I added trigger stops. Stoppages may have been a just a break in period. I think I remember those little Picos being rated for +p ammo like the Nano. I am kinda hoping Beretta is revamping the pico but they are always fairly tight lipped about whats in development. Maybe we will see a double stack version similar to the LCP max... but better of course.

Back to 25acp pocket autos. Its kind of a shame Ruger has not released a 25acp version of the LCP22. Then people would have the option for cheap practice with the LCP22 and use the LCP in 25acp for reliable carry. Its pretty rare to find a 25acp that isnt reliable. Even the inexpensive Zamak 25ACPs typically run 100%. Internet likes to bash the 25acp but in my experience its a fantastic little round for small pocket autos. Its not a powerhouse of course but it was never meant to be. It was designed to be a tiny pill size bullet that could run well in vest or pocket autos and it does that extremely well even for those with weaker grips or wrists to the point where even a child new shooter can handle it. My son is more bummed out than me about the cost of 25acp ammo right now.

 

[Griffen]

The only way I can see carrying one of these.

 

[cal44mag]

I didn't read this whole thread, but I recently purchased a Seecamp 32.

It's the same size as most of the 25s .

Plus it's still in production.