Pocket Carry - The 21 foot "test" everyone should take

[Dean1818]

I have had very good luck with reliability with a CM9 and a M&P 45C for my personal CCW.

The CM9 was purchased for those days where I need to tuck in my shirt and for when I am going for a quick run to the store

Both guns are excellent

The CM9 fits the pocket carry role for me, but I am beginning to think differently

Recently I had the opportunity to shoot a LCR and using the pocket holster
found that I could pull the LCR from my pocket MUCH quicker than the CM9

This has started to bother me a bit, as there MAY be a situation where a fast draw may be needed.

I had a client that practiced using the "21 foot" test.

The 21 foot test is having someone start from a stop and run directly toward you and have you cleanly draw and protect yourself (obviously with an unloaded weapon)

21 feet may seem like a long way away, but it goes quickly

I do ok with an IWB setup but not so good with a pocket carry, and not so well with a semi auto, even a small one in the pocket.

I can definitly draw from the pocket, but it isnt fast.

Looking back to the LCR, it actually has a taller height than the CM9 , and its longer as well.... It draws easier because of the more rounded top, and because when compared with the CM9 nose down, the height of the LCR is almost 1/2 inch less.

You can also see from this comparision that the backend of the semi is at an extreme angle that would lend itself to catch in the pocket.



The CM9 may be heading for IWB duty only and an LCR is my next for the pocket......

 

[The smiling swordsman]

Very interesting. I would not have thought to do this.

 

[Skylerbone]

At 21 feet with a charging individual I suggest a solid kick to the center of the chest with leg fully extended or learning to back up carefully and quickly. Either may buy you precious seconds for a firearm to be drawn but you might consider a can of mace with a lanyard hanging outside your pocket. Ending the attack and getting to safety is the goal, if no one gets shot, so much the better.

 

[MCgunner]

Well, not all pockets are the same, either. Some are cut such that they're easier, faster to draw from . This is why I like Wrangler Cargos over most of the carpenter's jeans out there. The front pockets of the wranglers are cut more vertical and are easier to draw from. I can even get at the gun sitting down.

+1 on the pepper gas. I always carry a small can. I might go to the gun if the guy has a knife, though, but if unarmed, I'm kinda a big guy. Be hard to prove disparity of force unless the guy was built like king kong.

 

[Captain Brown Beard]

Well you gained my interest. As a 25 yo in less than stellar shape I wanted to set a personal benchmark for this. So out comes the measuring tape, and had the old lady time me. I personally can go from dead still, up-right standing position, to passing the 21 foot mark in 2.1-2.2 seconds. From a ready position I can squeeze under 2.

Again, out of shape and 5'8", so there are others out there much faster.

Practice.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

the lesson i take away from this is that pocket carry is inadequate.

 

[wharvey]

I would think they're lots of variables the could make one better then the other.

2 things that give the revolver the advantage, for me, is I can more easily get a good firing grip without being noticed. - makes for a faster draw and better shot if I must fire. The second advantage just be that I've fired revolvers much more. Have little trouble point shooting into an 8" circle at 10 yards. All my auto loaders tend to go low, I guess it is the grip angle.

I suspect this is different from person to person. Use what works best for you.

 

[coolluke01]

Kicking a charging person with a straight leg to the chest is just plain stupid! They have momentum and you will be on one foot. If you fall you are done. Keep your feet! Also backing up quickly is not a very good practice. It's very easy to trip and go down that way too.

I do the test at 26'. The safest way to do the test is to have a person stand alongside you with their hand on your shoulder facing the opposite direction. Have a line in front of them at 26'.

When they take off running their hand will leave your shoulder and you begin to draw. This can be done live fire safely if you wish.

If you don't think you can get two your weapon in time DONT GO FOR IT! You will be left vulnerable and will have your gun half out when they hit you. Wait or run. If it's too close and you can't run deflect the attack. Sweeping motions with your arms when they try and engage you will through them off balance and will allow you time to safely draw your weapon.

Very interesting insight into pocket carry. I've been considering the LCP or J frame for pocket carry. I just can't stand to have my wallet and knife in my back pocket! iPhone in the weak side pocket so I think I'm stuck with IWB and ankle carry.

 

[ritepath]

When charged just take a quick half step forward slightly to one side or the other when they're close, big moe will carry them past you since they're already committed to attacking you in the place you used to stand. Timing is everything. Use your hands to deflect and rotate your body as they pass.



This is one of the reasons I only pocket carry my LCP if I'm not wearing a belt. The rest of the time I carry it in a fobus holster, looks like I'm carrying two phones one on each side. Most of the time if I'm wearing shorts I have my LCP in a pocket holster.

I really need to pick up a spare LCP...

 

[beatledog7]

I agree. Though I have a pocket holster (a cheapie) for my 642, I have used it very little, and this 21' test is why.

I can't get the gun out of my pocket and on target in less than about 2.5 seconds from any pants. Pants loose enough to allow the gun to easily leave the pocket aren't snug enough to keep the holster in the pocket. Conversely, pants that hold the holster in the pocket are too snug to release the gun.

So I'm back to mostly belt carry and still playing with IWB.

 

[Captain Brown Beard]

The only thing I ever really carry is an LCP in a pocket holster. While I'm fully aware it's not the ideal carry, I operate under the philosophy that it's better than a fist.

 

[Rob G]

I recall that during my training (over 10 years ago) it was taught, and demonstrated, that a perp at 21 feet would get you before you could get your gun almost every time. I'm sure there are a few quick draw artists out there that might be able to manage but the average Joe is in serious trouble at that distance.

We were basically taught that when drawing a weapon at close range, we needed to think about adding movement to what we were doing. Basically you try and move laterally as you draw because it adds distance and makes it harder for the BG to correct his motion and get at you. If necessary you can also use your weak hand to try and deflect their motion a little to give you more time.

 

[shootniron]

The advantage that pocket carry offers that puts it head and shoulders above ALL others is that with proper situational awareness and habits, you will already have your hand on the gun...

I have carried a 642 for years and I have refined my situational awareness and carry habits around that advantage. ANYTIME...that I exit doors into parking type environments, go around blind corners outside or when anyone is within 30ft of me in a parking lot or on a sidewalk, I have my hand on my gun.

The 642 works fine for me and my lifestyle...although I carry others occasionally.

Also, something worth mentioning...you better make sure someone is armed when rushing you from any distance before you shoot them. Shooting and then using the reasonable fear of grave injury or death defense after shooting an unarmed person is a dangerous legal game to play.

 

[coolluke01]

do you ever pull it out accidentally when you shake someones hand? lol.

That is a great benefit of pocket carry.

 

[Skylerbone]

Toe to heel, toe to heel retreat. Even if you trip and wind up on your back, you're only done when you give up.

I'd take you up on a challenge of kick vs. running man but it wouldn't be very High Road to collapse your chest. Don't limit your belief that a firearm will always be a first option, the best option or an option at all.

 

[danez71]

One of the last things you want to do is voluntarily put yourself on only one foot.

This isnt a karate kid movie.

 

[heeler]

Having pocket carried an older Smith M 37 Air Weight I will agree that because of the shape of the grip I most definitely could get a better grip on it and honestly a faster draw than I could two different micro 380's as well as my PM9 I have carried but the overall length of the revolver as well as it constantly peeking up and out of the pocket pushed me away from the snubs.
But then again is the mention of IWB carry and for me at least I am not totally convinced that method of draw is much faster than pocket carry while standing than the pocket carry mode due to having to clear a shirt and even more so if it's a tuckable IWB.
I certainly am no expert so take that statement for what it's worth.

Lastly I agree about not putting one's self on one foot.
Forget the damn kung fu BS movies being on one foot is the very best way you can be put right on your butt... Or flat on your back.

 

[toivo]

Sounds like the Tueller Drill. I took a class once where we did the #1 variation. The instructor gave us a big marker that we had to hold like a knife. You start back-to-back with the shooter, and on the instructor's command, you run at your target with the "knife," trying to cover the 21 feet and slash-mark your target before he can draw and shoot his target.

I don't remember exactly, but I believe the shooter's silhouette target was closer than 21 feet because in theory the assailant would have already covered some ground by the time the shooter could draw and shoot.

 

[sig228]

Btw, this "21 foot test" is a defensive training exercise known as the Tueller Drill

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

 

[Skylerbone]

Hope that single option mentality works for you if needed...and that your reaction time and the distance are always optimal, that way you can say you were prepared for what happened (even if you weren't prepared for anything). karate Kid? Hardly what I suggested. Any movement short of the moonwalk will have you voluntarily putting yourself on one foot, is movement not an option for you either? If not, you're playing The Quick and the Dead if he's got a knife.

I understand life isn't a movie, I understand that things don't always go as planned. Not having alternative training may be likened to one who hoards guns and ammo for doomsday but forgets food and water. What's that Marine slogan...

 

[CarlJ]

It seems to me an attacker will come stealthy. If we start getting thugs running at us like that to attack I"ll start carrying a Roman short sword.

 

[jimbo555]

Good one Carl! I think a Bowie knife is faster than the roman short sword, but seriously for me pocket carry is for the back up.I use a simple slide holster like the jit by hulme,very fast!

 

[bikerdoc]

At 63 and limited, I carry a cane and train with it, cause I am not the nimble brawler I used to be.
Situational awareness is key. I pocket carry a smith 649 or bersa 380 in addition to some flavor of CZ or 1911 IWB. It has never happened but I have trained and practiced Various tueller drills.
If you are unarmed you get the cane. Armed I practice drawing.
But mostly I practice situational awareness and avoidance. Dont go to stupid places at stupid times where people do stupid things.
Even in broad daylight church parking lots I am aware there might be a bozo lurking. As Mas Ayoob said, Being aware and ready results in the "failure of the victim selection process."

 

[atomd]

Way too many variables....pants pockets are so different that it can affect draw speed by a lot. Also, when comparing to a owb/iwb holster, there's so many choices in holsters and cover clothing that a lot of this would apply to that too. Now say it's the middle of winter and you have a long jacket on, zippered up....that is going to change things too with different ways of carrying.

I bet I can draw from my pocket with jeans and a tshirt on quicker than I can from my iwb holster @ 4:30 with a long (not super loose fitting) jacket on all zippered up.

 

[j1]

Dean this was an excellent useful and pertinant post. Thank you.