Jacobus Rex
Member
I've got an interesting angle on the whole point shooting thing. I don't want to discuss point shooting vs aimed or other shooting. I'd like to have a good discuss of the merits of various point shooting styles vs each other.
point shooting vs point shooting
- Thread starter Jacobus Rex
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I don't think there are actually different styles, but more so different variations depending on the situation. For the most part it depends on your natural ability to accurately point at things which is just hand and eye coordination. Generally, with space provided, you just extend the handgun out pointing in the direction you are looking. Now when there isn't room you use the retention method where you point with the handgun held close to the hip while leaning back to aquire space, better known as the speed rock.
You adapt the firing position relative to the time and space you have at hand relying on your ability to point at anything you can see.
You adapt the firing position relative to the time and space you have at hand relying on your ability to point at anything you can see.
Standing Wolf
Member in memoriam
As with aimed shooting, I find my point shooting is noticeably more accurate when I use only my right hand rather than both. I'll admit I don't do much point shooting.
Grunt
Member
The only time I worry about point shooting is if holding the weapon out allows it to be easily grabbed. If that's the case, a weapon retention hold and using a version of instinctive point shooting would be warrented. However, I figure if I got the time and space to get the weapon up to eye level, use the sights. That's what they're there for. 
Nick96
Member
Go get yourself a copy of a book titled "Stress Fire" by Masod Ayoob - first published in the 1980's. This whole subject is covered in it at length. One of the best little "self help" books I've found regarding the use of handguns for self defense. Read and try the techniques described - I did - and they work.
Here is the "Reader's Digest" summary:
Point shooting - as defined as drawing a handgun and shooting it - basically un-aimed from the hip - is very ineffective. It worked in the 1950's & 60 TV westerns & cop shows - but in the real world it doesn't. The exception of course are those few gifted individuals with exceptional hand / eye coordination, steel nerves and years of intence practice. For us mear mortals though, hip (or point) shooting is about as effective as consistently throwing a football through a tire swing at 20 feet. Some can do it - most can't.
Aimed shooting at close range (like under 20 feet) is not very effective either. At those distances the target can move and close on you so fast that you can be physically tackeled (or shot) before your hands, eyes & brain make the connection to pull the trigger. Remember your driver education training - reaction time between the time you see a problem - apply the brake - and are able to physically stop the vehicle before contact? Same thing here.
The solution - or at least the most practical I've been able to to apply in actual practice? The "Thrust Punch" method described by Mr. Ayoob. Basically a variation on martial arts training techniques. For those that have had some martial arts training - a "kata". A series of practiced moves where limbs and body mass are directed to apply desired force on a target almost instantaniously and reactivly.
Translating this to the operation of a hand gun - a two hand grip - slightly crouched stance - thrusting arms full forward with hands at about chin level - picking up the image of the top of the gun with both eyes focused on target (optional) - and pulling the trigger - instantly & instinctivly. Works in bright light - low light - or no light (which calls into question the real value of expensive "high tech" luminous & lazer type sights for short range self defense use).
Here is the "Reader's Digest" summary:
Point shooting - as defined as drawing a handgun and shooting it - basically un-aimed from the hip - is very ineffective. It worked in the 1950's & 60 TV westerns & cop shows - but in the real world it doesn't. The exception of course are those few gifted individuals with exceptional hand / eye coordination, steel nerves and years of intence practice. For us mear mortals though, hip (or point) shooting is about as effective as consistently throwing a football through a tire swing at 20 feet. Some can do it - most can't.
Aimed shooting at close range (like under 20 feet) is not very effective either. At those distances the target can move and close on you so fast that you can be physically tackeled (or shot) before your hands, eyes & brain make the connection to pull the trigger. Remember your driver education training - reaction time between the time you see a problem - apply the brake - and are able to physically stop the vehicle before contact? Same thing here.
The solution - or at least the most practical I've been able to to apply in actual practice? The "Thrust Punch" method described by Mr. Ayoob. Basically a variation on martial arts training techniques. For those that have had some martial arts training - a "kata". A series of practiced moves where limbs and body mass are directed to apply desired force on a target almost instantaniously and reactivly.
Translating this to the operation of a hand gun - a two hand grip - slightly crouched stance - thrusting arms full forward with hands at about chin level - picking up the image of the top of the gun with both eyes focused on target (optional) - and pulling the trigger - instantly & instinctivly. Works in bright light - low light - or no light (which calls into question the real value of expensive "high tech" luminous & lazer type sights for short range self defense use).
If you have a lot of time and money you can get good at point shooting. If you switch to another gun with a different grip angle then you need to start all over.
The only type of "point shooting" that I've seen that I thought made sense for normal folks is sort of a cross between point shooting and aimed shooting.
The idea is that for up-close, quick work or low-light situations you use the silhouette of the entire gun as the aiming device. You just hold the gun up in front of the target. If done properly, the off eye will see the target while the strong eye sees the gun--the same basic principle as the OEG scopes. This results in a view where the target is seen "through" the gun. It's faster than using the sights but obviously not as precise.
The only type of "point shooting" that I've seen that I thought made sense for normal folks is sort of a cross between point shooting and aimed shooting.
The idea is that for up-close, quick work or low-light situations you use the silhouette of the entire gun as the aiming device. You just hold the gun up in front of the target. If done properly, the off eye will see the target while the strong eye sees the gun--the same basic principle as the OEG scopes. This results in a view where the target is seen "through" the gun. It's faster than using the sights but obviously not as precise.
bubbygator
Member
Since the original post seems to invite it, I'll mention that I found I could only point-shoot "effectively" (10 inch spread @ 7 yards) when I 'punch-pointed' my gun as I was completing the squeeze. This seem contrary to the idea of holding the gun steady during squeeze, but that's the only way that worked for me.
Now that I've got lasers to help my eyesight, I don't point-shoot any more.
Now that I've got lasers to help my eyesight, I don't point-shoot any more.
Think of point shooting and aimed shooting directly related to distance.
point shooting is not always done from the retention position. But, retention shooting is always, of course, point shooting.
Scenario: BG at 3 yds, gun or knife wielding. If you point shoot with arms extended toward threat, I guarantee you won't have time to even look at the silhouette of your pistol, it is just bang bang bang. Coz if you take the time to aim at all, you could be bleeding to death.
Next scenario: BG at 25 yds away. Hopefully BG is not using sights, but you are, and you stay cool and get one in the abdomen and one on the forearm. The trick is to keep your cool and win the fight.
But here's a more likely scenario: you won't even have time to get both hands on the gun to fire, it will go down so fast that you must be able to deliver fast, effective fire with one hand, from retention or maybe you had a little time to get the gun up higher. You can forget about seeing anything except your assailant in front of you .
Here's some proof: triple check an unloaded pistol. Stand in front of a mirror at about 7 - 10 yds, like in a hallway or something. You are looking at yourself, your reflection is your "assailant". Now, draw from low ready or whatever and dry fire at your reflection as you walk quickly forward or backward to cover ( maybe a room to duck into or something ) Now, you probably were "aware" of your sights, but you didn't necessarily use them. Too much going on. I can't speak for you, but I am too focused on my reflection(assailant) to re-focus on my sights, it seems that doing so I am losing some situational awareness.
This digresses from the topic, but it is important to think about: an assailant grabs your right hand with both of his hands. What do you do if your gun is on your right side? Drawing your weapon now is out of the question. You need to have in your "toolbox" mentally, other options. You need to have some hand to hand skills to deal with this. Drawing a gun is not always what you should do. I keep a folding knife in my left pocket and practice using it left handed. Now I feel more comfortable with the folder in my left hand than right. Now I have access to a weapon with either hand. If I get an assailant right in my face, I don't think about drawing my gun. Using my head, I have other things I can do in an in-your-face-encounter than immediately think about drawing iron. I have fists, elbows, knees, feet, a knife that I could grab, and without opening up, still use it as an impact device, gain distance, then I could draw if I could do it safely. Me holding a loaded pistol during a wrestling match=possibly not the safest outcome for me.
I bring this up because a friend of mine in South Africa had three guys approach him at his car and one grabbed his right hand. Well guess what? He's left handed. He drew his Colt Officer's mod. from under his suit coat and shot the guy and one other as they all scattered. Betcha he didn't use his sights at all. Some of our other friend's laughed and chided him for not hitting all three, but that is another issue.
Point shooting is a strategy or technique that absolutely has to be practiced.
Aimed shooting is just as important. Use wisdom to know when to employ each method.
Have unarmed and knife techniques practiced and familiarize yourself with other methods.(pepper spray, asp baton, etc)
Remember the saying:" when your only tool is a hammer, then everything starts looking like a nail". Don't start locking yourself in a box where the solution to everything is drawing a pistol.
I speak generally, instead of individually- and I need to hear this probably more than others.
thanks for a good topic.
john l
point shooting is not always done from the retention position. But, retention shooting is always, of course, point shooting.
Scenario: BG at 3 yds, gun or knife wielding. If you point shoot with arms extended toward threat, I guarantee you won't have time to even look at the silhouette of your pistol, it is just bang bang bang. Coz if you take the time to aim at all, you could be bleeding to death.
Next scenario: BG at 25 yds away. Hopefully BG is not using sights, but you are, and you stay cool and get one in the abdomen and one on the forearm. The trick is to keep your cool and win the fight.
But here's a more likely scenario: you won't even have time to get both hands on the gun to fire, it will go down so fast that you must be able to deliver fast, effective fire with one hand, from retention or maybe you had a little time to get the gun up higher. You can forget about seeing anything except your assailant in front of you .
Here's some proof: triple check an unloaded pistol. Stand in front of a mirror at about 7 - 10 yds, like in a hallway or something. You are looking at yourself, your reflection is your "assailant". Now, draw from low ready or whatever and dry fire at your reflection as you walk quickly forward or backward to cover ( maybe a room to duck into or something ) Now, you probably were "aware" of your sights, but you didn't necessarily use them. Too much going on. I can't speak for you, but I am too focused on my reflection(assailant) to re-focus on my sights, it seems that doing so I am losing some situational awareness.
This digresses from the topic, but it is important to think about: an assailant grabs your right hand with both of his hands. What do you do if your gun is on your right side? Drawing your weapon now is out of the question. You need to have in your "toolbox" mentally, other options. You need to have some hand to hand skills to deal with this. Drawing a gun is not always what you should do. I keep a folding knife in my left pocket and practice using it left handed. Now I feel more comfortable with the folder in my left hand than right. Now I have access to a weapon with either hand. If I get an assailant right in my face, I don't think about drawing my gun. Using my head, I have other things I can do in an in-your-face-encounter than immediately think about drawing iron. I have fists, elbows, knees, feet, a knife that I could grab, and without opening up, still use it as an impact device, gain distance, then I could draw if I could do it safely. Me holding a loaded pistol during a wrestling match=possibly not the safest outcome for me.
I bring this up because a friend of mine in South Africa had three guys approach him at his car and one grabbed his right hand. Well guess what? He's left handed. He drew his Colt Officer's mod. from under his suit coat and shot the guy and one other as they all scattered. Betcha he didn't use his sights at all. Some of our other friend's laughed and chided him for not hitting all three, but that is another issue.
Point shooting is a strategy or technique that absolutely has to be practiced.
Aimed shooting is just as important. Use wisdom to know when to employ each method.
Have unarmed and knife techniques practiced and familiarize yourself with other methods.(pepper spray, asp baton, etc)
Remember the saying:" when your only tool is a hammer, then everything starts looking like a nail". Don't start locking yourself in a box where the solution to everything is drawing a pistol.
I speak generally, instead of individually- and I need to hear this probably more than others.
thanks for a good topic.
john l
Jacobus Rex
Member
I was hoping to have a point shooting style vs. point shooting style discussion instead of the usual point shooting discussion.
I'll redefine the question. This is the situation:
You are an instructor. You have a short period of time to train several people to compete in a point shooting match. Only point shooting will be allowed. Distance and firing position will be random. Only "self-defence" type scenarios will be done. Only "practical" type handguns and shooting styles will be used.
I'll redefine the question. This is the situation:
You are an instructor. You have a short period of time to train several people to compete in a point shooting match. Only point shooting will be allowed. Distance and firing position will be random. Only "self-defence" type scenarios will be done. Only "practical" type handguns and shooting styles will be used.
In that case I don't think it makes much difference what method you use. Training for a "short period of time"--regardless of the point shooting technique used--is going to yield pretty bad results.
If there's one thing that everyone agrees on it's that learning to point shoot is not an easy or short process.
Jacobus Rex
Member
I'm familiar with the most common forms of point shooting. I was only attempting to have a discussion about the various styles vs. each other. Point shooting discussions normally take the form of arguments about aimed/sighted fire vs point shooting or they tend to get side tracked just as this discussion has done.
I'm not trying to learn any new styles. I was hoping to discuss advantages and disadvantages of different systems. However, I think the point is lost.
The point was not to be "picky". This board has a great many usual type threads about point shooting as does Glocktalk. The sample situation was an attempt to narrow the focus for those that had any confusion about the original post.
I'm not trying to learn any new styles. I was hoping to discuss advantages and disadvantages of different systems. However, I think the point is lost.
The point was not to be "picky". This board has a great many usual type threads about point shooting as does Glocktalk. The sample situation was an attempt to narrow the focus for those that had any confusion about the original post.
Grump
Member
Okay, I've thought about this, and more importantly, experimented a bit since I was 16 or 17.....
One-handed from the hip=far less accurate. My reliable limit seems to be about 3 yards, which seems the max distance you should do it that way anyhow. Time and distance, as noted quite well above. But the retention position for this type of shooting seems like the most important variation to know. I can do 5 yards on a good day, but we want to be fairly certain of good hits. Retention or elbow at side, forearm out (slightly less secure) makes little difference for me.
One-handed pointing out is far more accurate because you get visual input on the slide or barrel. It's a very useful offset aiming device! Try it either in the dark or with a visual obstacle and you'll see how nearly-useless this can be beyond 3 yards if you can't see the handgun.
Two-handed "index" shooting=way accurate and shockingly fast, but top shooters are that fast with a sight picture for every shot!! What's nice about index shooting is that your natural point of aim allows hits when you can discern your target but cannot use the sights or even use an offset aim from the slide or barrel. I tried this at 10 yards in the dark and had nice COM hits on vertical 8-inch pipes out in the desert. You just can't use this one for extremely close opponents.
Two handed hip shooting seemed like a waste.
I've never truly tried the Ayoob technique, but I see it as needed only if your support hand is either injured or otherwise occupied. Seems to me that by the time you're pointed out that far, you might as well use the sights.
Extreme close quarters pointing the gun around obstacles or your partner=useful skill that would be desperately needed if the situation ever arose. Near-contact distance, so very little practice is probably needed. ? Maybe?
Hope this gets the thread back on track.
One-handed from the hip=far less accurate. My reliable limit seems to be about 3 yards, which seems the max distance you should do it that way anyhow. Time and distance, as noted quite well above. But the retention position for this type of shooting seems like the most important variation to know. I can do 5 yards on a good day, but we want to be fairly certain of good hits. Retention or elbow at side, forearm out (slightly less secure) makes little difference for me.
One-handed pointing out is far more accurate because you get visual input on the slide or barrel. It's a very useful offset aiming device! Try it either in the dark or with a visual obstacle and you'll see how nearly-useless this can be beyond 3 yards if you can't see the handgun.
Two-handed "index" shooting=way accurate and shockingly fast, but top shooters are that fast with a sight picture for every shot!! What's nice about index shooting is that your natural point of aim allows hits when you can discern your target but cannot use the sights or even use an offset aim from the slide or barrel. I tried this at 10 yards in the dark and had nice COM hits on vertical 8-inch pipes out in the desert. You just can't use this one for extremely close opponents.
Two handed hip shooting seemed like a waste.
I've never truly tried the Ayoob technique, but I see it as needed only if your support hand is either injured or otherwise occupied. Seems to me that by the time you're pointed out that far, you might as well use the sights.
Extreme close quarters pointing the gun around obstacles or your partner=useful skill that would be desperately needed if the situation ever arose. Near-contact distance, so very little practice is probably needed. ? Maybe?
Hope this gets the thread back on track.
Jacobus Rex
Member
I'm wondering the same thing about 2 handed vs. 1 hander point shooting. It seems to me that one handed is best for speed and weapon retention. (To side track a little, I'm thinking that if you have got time for a two handed hold then you will most likely have time for sighted fire. As noted above in the "toolbox" examples above.)
So I think that one handed seems best. Two handed point shooting is more accurate for me but I'm thinking the speed difference plays in. I'm interested in what others think as well.
My grandfather was a great point shooter. He shot one-handed crouching like the Fairbairn system. He learned it while working in the Texas prison system in the 50's from a captain that was an ex-Texas Ranger. I've tried it with some success.
Switching to rifle point shooting. I've tried rifle point shooting using QK and have had a lot of luck. I have very small horizontal spread on groups with a rifle at 25 yards. Vertical is much worse.
So I think that one handed seems best. Two handed point shooting is more accurate for me but I'm thinking the speed difference plays in. I'm interested in what others think as well.
My grandfather was a great point shooter. He shot one-handed crouching like the Fairbairn system. He learned it while working in the Texas prison system in the 50's from a captain that was an ex-Texas Ranger. I've tried it with some success.
Switching to rifle point shooting. I've tried rifle point shooting using QK and have had a lot of luck. I have very small horizontal spread on groups with a rifle at 25 yards. Vertical is much worse.
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