Police Concerned about Bulletproof Vests

Status
Not open for further replies.
C

Chipperman

Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2002
Messages
4,572
Location
Essex Co, MA
http://web1.whdh.com/news/articles/local/A27407/

BOSTON -- A company that makes bulletproof vests has told its police customers, that includes Massachusetts police officers, that it has seen an "unexpected decrease" in the strength of the fiber in two of its vest models, raising questions about wearers' safety.

The company, Second Chance Body Armor Inc. of Central Lake, Mich., is offering to upgrade the vests, which it says are worn by thousands of police officers and others.

The company said it detected the decrease in the strength of the fiber, Zylon, which is used in its Ultima and Ultimax vests. The vests "wear out faster than expected and ... there is a potential officer safety issue," the company said in a news release posted on its Web site.

The company said officers could get a free upgrade, consisting of inserts of additional pads to their current vest, or they could purchase a new, different vest at a discount.

In a Sept. 15 letter to customers also posted on the Web site, Paul Banducci, president and chief executive of the company, said the Ultima and Ultimax vests had been discontinued

"When introduced, the early degradation of this miracle fiber ... was not predicted by anyone in our industry. ... Little did we know where this new fiber would lead us," he said.

"We want to apologize for any inconvenience incurred by our customers, but we felt this is the right thing to do and we want to carry this program out as quickly as possible," Banducci said.

The Massachusetts Chiefs of Police Association, which estimates that at least 2,500 officers in the state wear the vests, has voted to ask the state attorney general to demand free replacements or refunds from the company, The Boston Globe reported in its Thursday edition.

In Massachusetts, dozens of local departments use the vests, as well as the state police. Boston police use a different brand.

"We're saying, 'You have a product that's not safe. What are you going to do about it?" said Plainville Police Chief Edward Merrick, president of the chiefs' association. "We have an obligation to our guys. We won't let Second Chance off the hook."

"Granted, we don't have a lot of shootings," Marblehead Detective Sean Sweeney told the Globe. "But that one time, I'd like to know the vest I'm wearing would stop the bullet."

Law enforcement officials are raising concerns about the vests across the country, including in Arizona, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Hawaii, Iowa and Washington. (AP)

------------------------------------
Saw a follow-up report today. Second Chance said they would upgrade the vests for free, but the Police say that's not good enough. The Cops want all new vests at no cost!! I wonder if the company could survive that.
 
Second Chance has always been on the cutting edgy. You can take it to the bank they will make this good.

snakelogo.jpg
 
"We want to apologize for any inconvenience incurred by our customers,
Click to expand...

uhhhggg "thats ok" gurgle "S*** happens" gasp "good thing
it was only a 9mm" thump
 
Second Chance was warned about using this material in body armor and they refused to take it off the market, etc. Second Chance is going to be sued, heavily, for product liability and by the officer shot in PA. Not to mention by the family of the officer killed in Oceanside (wearing the same style Second Chance body armor) and the deputy shot in Colorado. All wearing the same Second Chance style of body armor.

Look for Second Chance to file bankruptcy.
 
Second Chance is gonna need a second chance,they were informed that the new zylon material was not working,and now to make better they offer inserts to a vest that was purchased because it was small, light weight and comfortable.Now put in these rather large upgrade panels and it makes the vest bulky and heavy.Theres gonna be a large number of Depts that will seek restitution and Mass is only 1 of the many that will jump on the wagon.
 
Rich Davis, the owner of Second Chance, is a good guy, very supportive of LE and a man of honor. He will make good his promise. Odd sense of humor though and anybody who blasts himself to test his product is a bit nuts if you ask me. ;)
 
Adding panels or selling a new (old) vest at a discount doesn't cut it - the vests should be REPLACED by the manufacturer.
 
Morgan said:
Adding panels or selling a new (old) vest at a discount doesn't cut it - the vests should be REPLACED by the manufacturer.
Click to expand...

Ballistic packages in vests have always been a lifespan item. They start degrading the moment the material is formed. The various departments have received value for money. The life of the ballistic package is not what was expected, therefore the manufacturer has a responsibility to compensate the customer.

Example: If the package was rated good for 10 years and only provided the level of protection for 5, then half the value should be compensated.

Complete replacement is not called for.

Geoff
Who expects the protective garment industry will disappear after the first jury awards damages when an officer is killed by a bullet penetrating the CARRIER and missing the ballistic package.
 
Second Chance has known about this problem for a LONG time. And rather than solving it THEN they chose to lie to people who expressed concerns. And they allowed the law enforcement of this nation do their jobs wearing sub standard equipment with their name on it. Im wearing a second chance vest right now and the day that i can convince my boss to buy me a new vest or i can afford one on my own i will be replacing it with one made by a REPUTABLE company.

edited to add: Here is a link to a story out of Arizona concerning this very topic. Of particular interest is this passage said to be quoting a letter sent by second chance.
"We tested more than 200 vests in the last two years, and the most recent set of tests yielded results that caused us to be concerned," said company spokesman Gregg Smith. "This isn't a comfortable position, but we thought it was something we had to do."
Click to expand...

http://www.msnbc.com/local/azstar/A1064910682.asp?cp1=1

yeah, two years.
 
There have been various posts about Zylon, Spectra, and other UMHW plastics over on tacticalfourms.com. Apparently, they all lose some of their strength when exposed to high heat, and in some cases, moisture. As for me, I'm sticking with pure Kevlar.
 
Jeff - I understand warranties are for a certain amount of time. Testing of Kevlar vests, however, have shown them to work properly for ten or fifteen years (even ones that were stored in hot/cold car trunks as spares). This is a case of not doing enough testing, and then head in the sand when others brought it to light.

Vests aren't car batteries, warranted on a pro-rated basis. These defective vests should be replaced.
 
At least they discovered the problem & are ready to replace the ones currently in use & affected.

Sounds like a potential class action in the making :scrutiny:
 
10 Ring -

They are NOT willing to replace the vests. That's the problem. They want cops to buy new vests (at a discount), or add extra panels to the existing vests.

BTW, it isn't just Second Chance. PACA, ABA, and others are likely involved.
 
The problem is that the primary selling point for the effected vests were their light weight and THINNESS (is that a word?). In other words they were supposed to be the next generation of COMFORTABLE vests. And you paid a premium price for this. Adding 1/2 inch thick panels to this vest negates this entire point. Basically you end up with a high end expensive vest that is now just as bulky and uncomfortable as a much cheaper vest. This is hardly an appropriate solution.
 
If the vests are only two years old, I'd say replacement is called for.

My questions are many, but with protective equipment, nobody wants to be the person to discover a failure.

All the arguments in the world about lots of fabric etc. don't help someone who needs FAITH in his vest.

Geoff
Who knows the odds are you will never need body armor, but if you do, nothing less than protection will do.
 
Companies like Second Chance are between a rock and a hard place. If they don't rush new and innovative things to market they'll likely go under based on their customers going elsewhere. When they go to the great lengths they did to meet customers' demands, sometimes stuff like this will happen.

Good luck with getting them to give everyone new vests. Like they're made of money or something. In this economy, they're probably barely making it just like the rest of us. This will simply put them under, and you'll have one less company to get product from.
 
Second Chance has gone well out of their way to take care of things in the past and I expect them to do the same here. They created this industry and they have led the development of this field from the beginning and, like TechBrute said, they went to great lengths to meet the market demands. This market demand had a problem, when that problem surfaced they took steps to correct it, why slam them for that?
 
taking steps to correct the problem and ACTUALLY correcting the problem are different. like i said, the upgrade panels were not NIJ certified, which means they're poopy. i think second chance is great for getting the body armor business going, but they knew that zylon had a problem and still sold it. when everyone realized something was wrong with it they tried to offer some doofy upgrade panels, which don't meet NIJ standards. simple kevlar that costs under 200 bucks works better than their 1000 dollar zylon
 
Taking steps to correct the problem leads to correcting the problem, things do take time you know. Few if any quick, easy fix exists in the real world. I own an Ultima series vest and I have full faith in it right now. The claim that the upgrade panels do not meet NIJ standards is a non issue. The upgrade pannels are not made to pass the NIJ tests alone but in conjunction with the original vest. NIJ standards mean nothing in this case, and I could argue that the standards are worthless in general but that is another argument.

Re-reading the original post I see that the fault was announced by the manufacturer and not because of a failing in their product that lead to the death or injury to a vest wearer. The truth is Second Chance has a history of going out of their way to serve their market. If you have ever met and spoken with Richard Davis you will know that he is an average guy who is very concerned about what he does. He is far more concerned with saving police than he is saving profits. I am confident that he will do all he can to serve his consumers but asking him to surrender his company is no way to do them any good.

Morgan brings up one good point overlooked by others, PACA and ABA etc. are also facing criticism for their products but there is no upgrade from any of them, nor is there any statment from any of them admiting potential issues.

Kevlarman, I remember some of those posts from tacticalforums and as I remember it Second Chance was the only company to ask for more info and test data. Kevin (at tactical forums) is a materials engineer as I recall and was very specific about hisconcerns and that may have been a part of how this came to light, because SC was willing to listen and continue testing. It was a similar concern that kept Rich Davis from using Spectra in the first place.

From el tejon we have "GeewhizHighTech. Iwannacoolvest", did you not know that consumer demand drives future technologies? If his prejudices were more common we would just now be inventing the steam engine.

I agree with 4v50 Gary, Travis McGee and ThreeBadOne, all valid concerns will be dealt with by Rich and his company. For those who wonder, I am in the police equipment business but I do not sell Second Chance, they have two long standing dealers in my area, I sell another brand (but I wear Second Chance).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

R
  • Locked
Police Urged to Replace Bulletproof Vests
Replies
9
Views
1K
Cesiumsponge
C
D
  • Locked
Body Armor Maker Sued Over Zylon Vests
Replies
0
Views
897
David
D
D
  • Locked
At least 56% of nation's departments require the use of bulletproof vests
Replies
10
Views
779
kbellis3
K
C
  • Locked
Second Chance files for Chapter 11
Replies
8
Views
997
raz-0
R
P
  • Locked
Justice Dept. to investigate bullet-proof vests
Replies
9
Views
884
Bartholomew Roberts
B
Back
Top