Police Handguns

[Styx]

The point I was trying to make, is the bean counters would rather spend our our TAX DOLLARS on new hi-cap guns than on training Leo's to shoot accurately and reload FAST. In my younger days ( now 83 ) when the slide locked back , the magazine dropped out, new loaded magazine in place, slide forward ready to fire, about one second, that is training, not spraying and praying. Something that has been proven to work SUCCESSFULLY for 70-80-90-100 years why change??? New changes always bring new EXPENSIVE problems. But just my way of thinking???

In the case of 1911s and revolvers, yes, they have been and still are proven and successful. I fully agree with you. I'd push back though by stating that L.E. and military whose task is to stop and apprehend terrorist, heavily armed mass shooters, career fellons, gang members, multiple attackers, and criminals who are armed with standard capacity 15+ rounds, only having 5-7 rounds of ammo in the gun and for reloads against attacker(s) who have more than 2x as much clearly would put L.E. and our armed forces at a disadvantage whether they are highly trained or not. When it comes to firearms and fighting crime, nothing wrong with keeping up with the Joneses. L.E. have to have simular technology and firepower that the criminals have, and not all criminals are untrained or are bad shots...

 

[shafter]

In my state Glocks are by far the most common with some departments issuing Sig 226, P320, and some M&Ps and HKs.

 

[Brubz]

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It's not that it's better, but it's been the standard for a long time and it works. The newer striker fired guns like the M&P, CZ P10, P320, VP9 are just as good, if not better in certain aspects. But Glock was the first widely successful striker fired LE handgun and has been the standard for so long that it's entrenched itself in good and deep. A lot of logistics goes into switching guns.

Lets take my department for example. We'll use 3000 officers just as a round number ( we dont have quite that number because there isnt a whole lot of people signing up for testing after the last year).

First we would have to get all of the armorers and trainers trained on the new gun. Then you would have to buy roughly 3500 new guns, holsters, extra magazines, magazine pouches, spare parts, specific tools, etc...

Then you have to train the 3000 officers on the new gun. Do you bring them down on work time? Who covers for them? Do you bring them down on over time? How much is that going to cost? Hiw much ammo is going to need to be shot for guys to get proficient with their new gun? Everyone is going to have to pass a POST qualification prior to carrying the gun, so we are looking at even more time to train guys that fail the qualification.

Remember most cops are not gun people. Many cops I know only have 1 gun, their issued handgun. I know a couple who dont even take it home at night. Other guys might have another handgun or two but they are also Glocks because that's what they carry at work and that's what they've been trained on for the last 10, 15, 20, 25 years. I know of detectives who keep their gun locked in their desk at work. They take it out for the mandatory quarterly range sessions and annual qualification. Some of these guys wont have much of an issue with the new guns, some guys are going to require a good amount of range time before they can qualify on the gun.

Then you have to get rid of the old guns. That means while the officers are training at the range with the new gun, you'll need several of your trainers/armorers off the line to get the old guns ready for trade in. Whatever distributor you contract with isnt going to want a Barrel 'O' Glocks showing up.

So with all that in mind, convincing management and city/county/state officials that going through all of that to replace a well known and respected firearm is going to take some serious effort.

This is a great post and goes a long way towards explaining why so many PDs are reluctant to change

 

[fastbolt]

LAPD started having academy cadets buy M&P9's a few years ago. I knew the gun company rep who handled the deal, and he was also the same guy who sold LAPD on Glocks many years ago (when he worked for Glock ). LASD went to the M&P9 for general issue. The CHP bid went to S&W for the original 'generation' of the M&P40 (and M&P40C for plainclothes).

The significant bulk of guns I see in holsters among agencies nowadays seems to run Glock, M&P and SIG (P320), in that order. SIG is getting more business with the P320.

An armorer with whom I used to work is trained on Glocks, M&P's and the P320. He recently told me that the P320's chassis unit is like a cuckoo clock. He likes it, though. I've not been trained as an armorer for the 320, so I have no experience or opinion on it. As an armorer and shooter I tend to like the Glock, M&P and the original Walther 99 series (including the licensed S&W version).

Lots of fine service weapon options nowadays.

I lament the passing of the metal-framed traditional double action (DA/SA), myself, but for government work the plastic guns work fine.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

The point I was trying to make, is the bean counters would rather spend our our TAX DOLLARS on new hi-cap guns than on training Leo's to shoot accurately and reload FAST. In my younger days ( now 83 ) when the slide locked back , the magazine dropped out, new loaded magazine in place, slide forward ready to fire, about one second, that is training, not spraying and praying. Something that has been proven to work SUCCESSFULLY for 70-80-90-100 years why change??? New changes always bring new EXPENSIVE problems. But just my way of thinking???

Some people tend to think that things are still the way they were years ago. But if we all lived in the past, police officers would still be carrying revolvers. The 1911 was not as widely used in law enforcement as some think. Back in the 80s and early 90s revolvers in 38 Spl. and 357 Magnum were the number one choices of most police departments across the country.
Now if this topic was about what the police used to carry, maybe you post would have been so confusing.

 

[herrwalther]

LAPD started having academy cadets buy M&P9's a few years ago. I knew the gun company rep who handled the deal, and he was also the same guy who sold LAPD on Glocks many years ago (when he worked for Glock ). LASD went to the M&P9 for general issue. The CHP bid went to S&W for the original 'generation' of the M&P40 (and M&P40C for plainclothes).

Looks like they just changed their mind again. Story on my FB feed this morning just happened to say LAPD is switching to the FN 509 MRD-LE.
https://soldiersystems.net/2021/08/...ment-selects-fn-509-mrd-le-as-new-duty-pistol

 

[fastbolt]

Looks like they just changed their mind again. Story on my FB feed this morning just happened to say LAPD is switching to the FN 509 MRD-LE.
https://soldiersystems.net/2021/08/...ment-selects-fn-509-mrd-le-as-new-duty-pistol

Yeah, I saw that elsewhere, too. In a way it's unsurprising, since the previous 5 year contract is done.

If S&W ever decides to get off their butt and make the C.O.R.E. system optic-ready guns available in working model configurations, they might be able to attract some attention among the growing number of agencies wanting red dot equipped duty weapons. In the meantime, they seem to be willing to sit this one out. Confused corporate thinking?

In a way I'm a little surprised that SIG wasn't named, as their XCarry w/Romeo 1 Pro 3MOA is attracting some LE attention (unless SIG didn't submit anything for the latest bid, or if they did, they didn't submit a low enough bid).

In the meantime, the original M&P9 will apparently take its place alongside the previous Beretta, S&W 3rd gen and Glock duty weapons formerly approved for academy new-hires.

 

[Speedo66]

It wouldn’t be a stretch for a gun manufacturer to sell below cost to an agency that they think will influence others to buy.

Harley Davidson has done this in the past with CHiPs.

That agency is highly regarded as motorcycle users and H-D believes they enhance their image with others.

 

[fastbolt]

From what I've been able to hear, the FN bid was "very attractive", cost-wise.

 

[C-grunt]

It wouldn’t be a stretch for a gun manufacturer to sell below cost to an agency that they think will influence others to buy.

Harley Davidson has done this in the past with CHiPs.

That agency is highly regarded as motorcycle users and H-D believes they enhance their image with others.

From what Ive heard S&W was literally giving guns for free to land LE contacts with the new M&P. Ive heard CZ is doing the same with the P10.

 

[JR24]

Glocks around here and in most of the state from what I've seen. Though I did see an article a while back that said my home town (well, city next to my home town) switched to HK Optional instead of Glock.

Not LEO but I did notice the armored car company I see around town seems to have switched from S&W Sigmas to the FN 509.

 

[Average Joe]

Glock 17 around here, they get huge discounts from Glock, that might be the reason.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Glock 17 around here, they get huge discounts from Glock, that might be the reason.

A lot of people have a misconception of the discount that police departments get on guns. Discounts are offered by most manufacturers to the departments. Another misconception is that Glock buys the departments old guns. In most cases the department sales their old guns to the dealer that handles the new gun sale. It is up to the dealer to sell the guns in their store, or to sell then to a wholesaler like Aim Surplus.
Most departments give the officers the opportunity to buy their old issue gun at a discount, but this is most often handled through the dealer that is buying the old guns.
I bought my Glock 22 Gen3 back in 2008 through the dealer that sold the department it’s new Gen4s. I paid just under $300.
When I retire in December, I had the opportunity to buy my issue sidearm, which was a Glock 17 Gen4 with night sights.
Here’s the record of sale from my department which shows the actual price the department paid for the gun and how much I paid for it.

 

[C-grunt]

A lot of people have a misconception of the discount that police departments get on guns. Discounts are offered by most manufacturers to the departments. Another misconception is that Glock buys the departments old guns. In most cases the department sales their old guns to the dealer that handles the new gun sale. It is up to the dealer to sell the guns in their store, or to sell then to a wholesaler like Aim Surplus.
Most departments give the officers the opportunity to buy their old issue gun at a discount, but this is most often handled through the dealer that is buying the old guns.
I bought my Glock 22 Gen3 back in 2008 through the dealer that sold the department it’s new Gen4s. I paid just under $300.
When I retire in December, I had the opportunity to buy my issue sidearm, which was a Glock 17 Gen4 with night sights.
Here’s the record of sale from my department which shows the actual price the department paid for the gun and how much I paid for it.

We get to buy our issued gun at retirement for 1 dollar. Yall getting ripped off. Haha

Congrats on the retirement

 

[GunnyUSMC]

We get to buy our issued gun at retirement for 1 dollar. Yall getting ripped off. Haha

Congrats on the retirement

Every department is different.

 

[mrmike7189]

In Massachusetts currently I see mostly Glock and Sig 320's.
The MA State Police carry S&W M&P 45's

 

[Robert]

I had to delete a full page worth of off topic posts to keep this from getting shut down...

Last year we switched to G45's with Trijicon RMR sights, and a 1000 lumen Surefire light. Spent two days and over 1000 rounds learning the new pistol and sight. We were allowed to purchase our old G22s at reduced cost so I bought mine. I also picked up a retired G23 that my wife has since laid claim to...

City carries M&Ps and I think State does too.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

We get to buy our issued gun at retirement for 1 dollar. ...

Nice retirement bonus and generally earned and deserved.