Police State USA

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pacodelahoya

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http://www.house.gov/paul/tst/tst2004/tst080904.htm

Last week’s announcement that the terrorist threat warning level has been raised in parts of New York, New Jersey, and Washington, D.C. has led to dramatic and unprecedented restrictions on the movements of citizens. Americans wishing to visit the U.S. Capitol must, for example, pass through several checkpoints and submit to police inspection of their cars and persons.

Many Americans support the new security measures because they claim to feel safer when the government issues terror alerts and fills the streets with militarized police forces. As one tourist interviewed this week said, “It makes me feel comfortable to know that everything is being checked.” It is ironic that tourists coming to Washington to celebrate the freedoms embodied in the Declaration of Independence are so eager to give up those freedoms with no questions asked.

Freedom is not defined by safety. Freedom is defined by the ability of citizens to live without government interference. Government cannot create a world without risks, nor would we really wish to live in such a fictional place. Only a totalitarian society would even claim absolute safety as a worthy ideal, because it would require total state control over its citizens’ lives. This doesn’t stop governments, including our own, from seeking more control over and intrusion into our lives. As one Member of Congress stated to the press last week, “people who don’t want to be searched don’t need to come on Capitol grounds.” What an insult! The Capitol belongs to the American people who pay for it, not to Congress or the police.

It is worth noting that the government rushes first to protect itself, devoting enormous resources to make places like the Capitol grounds safe, while just beyond lies one of the most dangerous neighborhoods in the nation. What makes Congress more worthy of protection from terrorists than ordinary citizens?

To understand the nature of our domestic response to the September 11th, 2001 attacks, we must understand the nature of government. Government naturally expands, and any crises- whether real or manufactured- serve to justify more and more government power over our lives. Bureaucrats have used the tragedy of 9-11 as an excuse to seize police powers sought for decades, such as warrantless searches, internet monitoring, and access to bank records. It should be no surprise that the recently released report of the 9-11 Commission has but one central recommendation: bigger government and more spending at home and abroad.

Every new security measure represents another failure of the once-courageous American spirit. The more we change our lives, the more we obsess about terrorism, the more the terrorists have won. As commentator Lew Rockwell of the Ludwig von Mises Institute explains, terrorists in effect have been elevated by our response to 9-11: “They are running the country. They determine our civic life. They shape our private life. They decide how public resources are spent. They may dictate who gets to be the next president. It should be obvious that the government doesn’t object. Not at all. The government benefits, by getting ever more reason for ever more money and power.”

Every generation must resist the temptation to believe that it lives in the most dangerous time in American history. The threat of Islamic terrorism is real, but it is not the greatest danger ever faced by our nation. This is not to dismiss the threat of terrorism, but rather to put it in perspective. Those who seek to whip the nation into a frenzy of fear do a disservice to a country that expelled the British, fought two world wars, and stared down the Soviet empire.

Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.





This is from Ron Pauls weekly column, Texas Straight Talk.

I particularly find the last paragraph quite appropos for this forum. Looks like better people than me are well stocked on tinfoil huh?;):evil:
 
Government cannot create a world without risks, nor would we really wish to live in such a fictional place.
Unfortunately, more and more people would like to live this way. Such is the root of our present difficulties.
 
It's A Shame

How sad it truly is when we've gone from this:

It is a universal truth that the loss of liberty at home is to be charged to the provisions against danger, real or pretended, from abroad. ~~James Madison

To this:

"If someone is so fearful that they are going to start using their weapons to protect their rights, it makes me very nervous that these people have weapons at all." ~~Henry Waxman

Woody

Truth be told, soap boxes and ballot boxes are made out of empty cartridge boxes. B.E. Wood
 
Mr. Waxman should be nervous. The whole point of an armed citizenry is to resist the encroachments of government.
Not Crime
Not Sports
But to fight Tyranny

BTW this means that the "Sporting Purpose" tests are Prima Facia invalid.

Jefferson
 
In the name of freedom would you prefer the government to ignore real threats? In any civilized society there is a balance between individual freedom and public safety and security. That does not mean we just accept whatever actions government officials want to take, but it also does not mean we chastise the government for taking responsible steps to insure public safety. Personally, I want the government to try to stop terrorists from killing Americans, and not just make the appearance of doing something. And yes, during times of crisis, such as during the Civil War and during WWII, there were restrictions on freedoms in the name of national security. Our freedoms do not mean we must allow ourselves to be destroyed or allow others to take away all of our rights through violence and intimidation. The line is a hard one to define but railing against legitimate security precautions is not responsible criticism.
 
legitimate security precautions
We're not "railing" against them, we're questioning their legitimacy. As for stopping terrorists from killing Americans, how about we deal with our current problems without creating more for later?
 
oooh what color code of fear are we at right now????

As a legal law-abidding armed CITIZEN, property owner that would protect my family and neighborhood..that would be glad to join a civil defense unit (if we had one)..........I have no other role in this Govt's eyes than to see the pretty colors and hope upon hopes that my allknowing and allcaring Govt takes care of me!!!
 
Ron Paul said:
Every generation must resist the temptation to believe that it lives in the most dangerous time in American history. The threat of Islamic terrorism is real, but it is not the greatest danger ever faced by our nation. This is not to dismiss the threat of terrorism, but rather to put it in perspective. Those who seek to whip the nation into a frenzy of fear do a disservice to a country that expelled the British, fought two world wars, and stared down the Soviet empire.

O
M
G...

+1,000
 
while I agree slightly with vito, I believe that if the government were really "for the people, by the people" than it would be concerned more with getting the nation to defend itself, rather than so concerned with creating gestapos.
Unfortunately the Spock generation has totally weakend the resolve of most Americans. They do not want to fight for thier own freedom, they want to sit back and let the government do it secretly, and they don't want to have to notice when something bad happens. (which is why the most recent thwarted terror attack was on page 37 of the NY times).
Mandatory searches of vehicles entering a public place is not only wrong, it's unconstitutional. The supreme court ruled in Indianapolis VS Edmond (2000) that roadblocks for "general law enforcement purposes" is an illegal siezure of lawful movement, therefor a violation of the 4th ammendment.
So, what they are doing has been ruled unconstitutional, however I doubt that anyone will say anything about it.
This is the beginning of a slipper slope. First it starts
"well, the government can take exigent circumstances, and take away freedoms in order to keep me safe". The leads to "well, in order to keep me safe (all the time) the government must take away my freedoms" <-- this is tyranny, or atleast a police state. Which is exactly the opposite of what people think we live in.
 
I think that about covers it.

But it is easier to tell people to buy duct tape and plastic tarps to cover their windows with. And people like that answer because it is something that they can do that is easy and makes them feel safer.

And if they don't like the government answer they can stockpile and cache guns and ammo. That is also easy to do and will make them feel safe. instead.

Maybe the truth is there are no easy answers.
 
We've had police checkpoints for cars since at least 1958, as I remember full well. Once we officially got into the "War on Drugs" in 1973-ish, police powers expanded notably. Same for the creation of EPA and OSHA.

After the Olympic Park bombing in Atlanta (1998?), some 53% of 1,200 respondents (a rathere large poll number) said they'd give up some freedoms for more security.

Then came 9/11. Most of y'all are old enough to actually remember that, compared to us Old Pharts who were driving in 1958 or at least in adulthood in the 1970s. Anyhow, "The rest is history," with the Patriot Act and the creation of the Dept. of Homeland Security.

Note that nowhere is there any real evidence of anything besides Big Nanny trying to keep us all safe, snuggly and secure in our swaddling cloth cradles. "The best of intentions," all the way through all this.

It's as if the very concept of personal sovereignty and individual freedoms and rights are gone plumb out the window. "Security at all costs!"

Damfino. You try to talk to the VIPs and it's Blank-look City. You say, "Police state," and they don't have a clue about what you're saying.

Art
 
Americans wishing to visit the U.S. Capitol must, for example, pass through several checkpoints and submit to police inspection of their cars and persons.

As one Member of Congress stated to the press last week, “people who don’t want to be searched don’t need to come on Capitol grounds.” What an insult! The Capitol belongs to the American people who pay for it, not to Congress or the police.

Not too long ago my family came down from NY to visit. As we walked around the mall in DC we stopped at the various Smithsonian museums and so forth and some we walked into and others I declined. My sister was puzzled by my behavior and eventually asked me why I refused to go into some of the museums. I told her that it was because I was offended at notion of being treated like a criminal (at the security checkpoints) when going to visit something that I (as a taxpayer) helped to pay for. (note, only -some- of the Smithsonian places have checkpoints, not all).

My sister responded in sheep fashion about how they were just trying to keep us safe. So I pointed out that these precautions weren't in place for EVERY Smithsonian building and such a slipshod patchwork of security could only be "for show only" to make people "feel good" rather than actually accomplishing anything.

Finally we get over by the Capitol building and my Sister decides she wants to do the Capitol tour. I decline again and again she just can't understand my reasons. Finally in frustration I blurt out "Look, I'm not going to be searched like a criminal to be given the "honor" of getting to see a building I help pay for which is full of people who are supposed to be working for me but who all seem to have vastly more rights than I do right now".

Other people looked at me like I was crazy but this one other family actually stepped out of the line when the husband looked at his wife and she says "makes sense to me".

My family decided to go in anyway so I told them to have fun, I was going home and they could find their own way back and I left.

By God, I'm STILL mad about that whole thing so Ron Paul's article really whanged off a nerve with me.
 
Freedom is too hard.

It requires vigilance and responsibility. I t also requires an unflinching ability to accept the consequences of one's actions.

Jefferson
 
Terrorist Attacks

Terrorist Attacks
(within the United States or against Americans abroad)

Third world countries and the places that advocate gun control have one major thing in common, they are constantly hit by terror. Like Carlos Mancia says, "Too bad the September 11th Terrorists didn't hijack 3 SouthWest Airlines aircraft, the Wet-Backs and the Hillbilly's would have shown them the true American reaction." I think that pretty much sums it up. There is a Middle-Eastern saying, "The Porridge you cook is the Porridge you eat." I have no reason to visit the East Coast, I don't worry about people that don't have the God given common sense to worry about themselves (I don't mean the Southern Portion and the pro-gun states).


1920
Sept. 16, New York City: TNT bomb planted in unattended horse-drawn wagon exploded on Wall Street opposite House of Morgan, killing 35 people and injuring hundreds more. Bolshevist or anarchist terrorists believed responsible, but crime never solved.
1975
Jan. 24, New York City: bomb set off in historic Fraunces Tavern killed 4 and injured more than 50 people. Puerto Rican nationalist group (FALN) claimed responsibility, and police tied 13 other bombings to the group.
1979
Nov. 4, Tehran, Iran: Iranian radical students seized the U.S. embassy, taking 66 hostages. 14 were later released. The remaining 52 were freed after 444 days on the day of President Reagan's inauguration.
1982–1991
Lebanon: Thirty US and other Western hostages kidnapped in Lebanon by Hezbollah. Some were killed, some died in captivity, and some were eventually released. Terry Anderson was held for 2,454 days.
1983
April 18, Beirut, Lebanon: U.S. embassy destroyed in suicide car-bomb attack; 63 dead, including 17 Americans. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.
Oct. 23, Beirut, Lebanon: Shiite suicide bombers exploded truck near U.S. military barracks at Beirut airport, killing 241 marines. Minutes later a second bomb killed 58 French paratroopers in their barracks in West Beirut.
Dec. 12, Kuwait City, Kuwait: Shiite truck bombers attacked the U.S. embassy and other targets, killing 5 and injuring 80.
1984
Sept. 20, east Beirut, Lebanon: truck bomb exploded outside the U.S. embassy annex, killing 24, including 2 U.S. military.
Dec. 3, Beirut, Lebanon: Kuwait Airways Flight 221, from Kuwait to Pakistan, hijacked and diverted to Tehran. 2 Americans killed.
1985
April 12, Madrid, Spain: Bombing at restaurant frequented by U.S. soldiers, killed 18 Spaniards and injured 82.
June 14, Beirut, Lebanon: TWA Flight 847 en route from Athens to Rome hijacked to Beirut by Hezbollah terrorists and held for 17 days. A U.S. Navy diver executed.
Oct. 7, Mediterranean Sea: gunmen attack Italian cruise ship, Achille Lauro. One U.S. tourist killed. Hijacking linked to Libya.
Dec. 18, Rome, Italy, and Vienna, Austria: airports in Rome and Vienna were bombed, killing 20 people, 5 of whom were Americans. Bombing linked to Libya.
1986
April 2, Athens, Greece:A bomb exploded aboard TWA flight 840 en route from Rome to Athens, killing 4 Americans and injuring 9.
April 5, West Berlin, Germany: Libyans bombed a disco frequented by U.S. servicemen, killing 2 and injuring hundreds.
1988
Dec. 21, Lockerbie, Scotland: N.Y.-bound Pan-Am Boeing 747 exploded in flight from a terrorist bomb and crashed into Scottish village, killing all 259 aboard and 11 on the ground. Passengers included 35 Syracuse University students and many U.S. military personnel. Libya formally admitted responsibility 15 years later (Aug. 2003) and offered $2.7 billion compensation to victims' families.
1993
Feb. 26, New York City: bomb exploded in basement garage of World Trade Center, killing 6 and injuring at least 1,040 others. In 1995, militant Islamist Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman and 9 others were convicted of conspiracy charges, and in 1998, Ramzi Yousef, believed to have been the mastermind, was convicted of the bombing. Al-Qaeda involvement is suspected.
1995
April 19, Oklahoma City: car bomb exploded outside federal office building, collapsing wall and floors. 168 people were killed, including 19 children and 1 person who died in rescue effort. Over 220 buildings sustained damage. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols later convicted in the antigovernment plot to avenge the Branch Davidian standoff in Waco, Tex., exactly 2 years earlier. (See Miscellaneous Disasters.)
Nov. 13, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: car bomb exploded at U.S. military headquarters, killing 5 U.S. military servicemen.
1996
June 25, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia: truck bomb exploded outside Khobar Towers military complex, killing 19 American servicemen and injuring hundreds of others. 13 Saudis and a Lebanese, all alleged members of Islamic militant group Hezbollah, were indicted on charges relating to the attack in June 2001.
1998
Aug. 7, Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania: truck bombs exploded almost simultaneously near 2 U.S. embassies, killing 224 (213 in Kenya and 11 in Tanzania) and injuring about 4,500. 4 men connected with al-Qaeda 2 of whom had received training at al-Qaeda camps inside Afghanistan, were convicted of the killings in May 2001 and later sentenced to life in prison. A federal grand jury had indicted 22 men in connection with the attacks, including Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, who remained at large.
2000
Oct. 12, Aden, Yemen: U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole heavily damaged when a small boat loaded with explosives blew up alongside it. 17 sailors killed. Linked to Osama bin Laden, or members of al-Qaeda terrorist network.
2001
Sept. 11, New York City, Arlington, Va., and Shanksville, Pa.: hijackers crashed 2 commercial jets into twin towers of World Trade Center; 2 more hijacked jets were crashed into the Pentagon and a field in rural Pa. Total dead and missing numbered 2,9921: 2,749 in New York City, 184 at the Pentagon, 40 in Pa., and 19 hijackers. Islamic al-Qaeda terrorist group blamed. (See September 11, 2001: Timeline of Terrorism.)
2002
June 14, Karachi, Pakistan: bomb exploded outside American consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12. Linked to al-Qaeda.
2003
May 12, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: suicide bombers killed 34, including 8 Americans, at housing compounds for Westerners. Al-Qaeda suspected.
2004
May 29–31, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists attack the offices of a Saudi oil company in Khobar, Saudi Arabia, take foreign oil workers hostage in a nearby residential compound, leaving 22 people dead including one American.
June 11–19, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists kidnap and execute Paul Johnson Jr., an American, in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. 2 other Americans and BBC cameraman killed by gun attacks.
Dec. 6, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia: terrorists storm the U.S. consulate, killing 5 consulate employees. 4 terrorists were killed by Saudi security.
2005
Nov. 9, Amman, Jordan: Suicide bombers hit 3 American hotels, Radisson, Grand Hyatt, and Days Inn, in Amman, Jordan, killing 57. Al-Qaeda claimed responsibility.
2006
Sept. 13, Damascus, Syria: an attack by four gunman on the American embassy was foiled.
2007
Jan. 12, Athens, Greece: the U.S. embassy was fired on by an anti-tank missile causing damage but no injuries
 
"I told her that it was because I was offended at notion of being treated like a criminal (at the security checkpoints) when going to visit something that I (as a taxpayer) helped to pay for."

Who treated you like a criminal?

John
 
1978 Titan visits DC. No security at the museums other than unarmed guard (unless you want to see the gemstone collection with the Hope Diamond), a metal detector and armed guard at the capitol building. Busy traffic on street in front of white house. Tours readily available.

1993 Titan and also scruffy looking buddy on leave visit DC. Access to Whitehouse now a little restricted. Capitol Building still a piece of cake, no change. Buddy and I accidentally get a little ''lost'' and in ''secure'' elevator run into of all people Trent Lott. He thinks we are aides coming back from a luch time jog and chats with us for a moment. Some museuems have armed guards now.

2007- See above posts.
 
"Some museuems have armed guards now."

Some banks have armed guards and the stuff in the Smithsonian is worth a lot more. Seems prudent.

You didn't think they were guarding the visitors, did you? ;)

John
 
"I told her that it was because I was offended at notion of being treated like a criminal (at the security checkpoints) when going to visit something that I (as a taxpayer) helped to pay for."

Who treated you like a criminal?

John

John,
When I have done absolutely nothing but walk into a -public and publicly funded- building, and an armed guard stops me, orders me to empty all pockets, place my belongings in a tray, run myself and my camera bag through a detector, pulls me aside and asks me to remove my shoes and runs a detector wand all over me and then confiscates some of my private property (a water bottle and an asthma inhaler).... I'm being treated like a criminal and it is extremely offensive.

Especially when I have more than 10 years experience of walking in and out of that same set of buildings unmolested.
 
You Guys Are Crazy !

In reading these posts about a police state, paying taxes and being treated as a criminal, I have come to the conclusion you are all crazy!

MY KIND OF FOLKS! God, I was worried I was the only one who felt like this.

I was on another site, which I will not name (SIGForum) and they were all limp wrists, don't get involved, I'm afraid types.

Government works for you and me. I am going to fire as many of these folks on election day as I can and will keep on firing them until we get some in there who will listen to their bosses. :D
 
I would give real money for somebody to be called to testify before Congress, and refuse to be searched. Congresscritter Blowhard's comment about "people who don’t want to be searched don’t need to come on Capitol grounds" would take on an interesting new meaning.

Here's a question for the legal eagles: if you're compelled to come testify, can you refuse the search? I understand that you can be searched against your will if you're arrested (because there's an accusation of wrongdoing, and ostensibly some due process), but can an otherwise innocent citizen be compelled to undergo a search because somebody wants to hear him talk?
 
There are ways to get around that court ruling

Mandatory searches of vehicles entering a public place is not only wrong, it's unconstitutional. The supreme court ruled in Indianapolis VS Edmond (2000) that roadblocks for "general law enforcement purposes" is an illegal siezure of lawful movement, therefor a violation of the 4th ammendment.

For example, in my local community LEO's setup bottle necks. Here is my explanation. Traffic is forced from two lanes into one lane. What do people do when they see 4 or 5 LEO cars parked along side the road with their lights flashing? They slow down, way down and rightfully so out of respect and common courtesy. Every vehicle is visually checked by LEO's standing on the side of the road. What is the purpose of this particular encounter? To enforce the seat belt laws. They are protecting stupid people from themselves. Although, I have to admit their slogan "Click it or Ticket" is fairly catchy. They got around that ruling because this method isn't a road block it is a bottle neck.
 
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