Polish 9mm semi-automatic pistol, need help identifying.

[rhippert]

My Grand Father left this behind. He got it from his good friend, and always referred to as "the Polish 9mm".

These markings are on the gun:

PANSTWOWEWYTWORNTEUZBROJENIA
next line:

FABRYKABRONIWRADOMIU

On the other side:

VIS cal 9mm

pat n 15567

48190

Any info you can provide would be appreciated.
Thanks

 

[tangomike706]

I believe this pistol is known popularly as the "Radom" in the US , but is also known as the VIS ..

More information can be found on Wikipedia or something like it . but the design is based on Browning's 1911 pistol . it was first designed in the mid 1930's, and should use an 8 round magazine

 

[hso]

Yep, it is a Radom.

 

[cleardiddion]

Radom for sure and indeed it is Polish.
It's a good pistol from everything that I've heard.
I think there was something in American Rifleman a few months back about it.

 

[rust collector]

parts diagram: http://www.mek-schuetzen.de/Blueprints/Radom_VIS_35.gif

Just google Radom vis 35 for more info

I owned one in cosmetically challenged condition. It was a good shooter, but I eventually traded it off. It was fun to show my huntsafe students the Polish pistol with no (apparent) safety catch.

They have become valuable, especially if they bear a german waffenamt (77).

I believe Radom was the city where they were made.

 

[Oyeboten]

I think they sort of Waved briefly to John Browning on that one...

Anyway, always heard good reports about the 'Radon' or 'Vis'...but never owned or fired one.

Many were GI Bring-Backs.

Original Magazines tend to be pricey.

Is that one Nickel Plated?

 

[rhippert]

Thank you one and all for the replies. I have seen the Wiki entry, but questioned that it referred to this weapon, because the Wiki entry, and the referenced parts break-out, show a "hammer lowering catch" on the left side of the slide that this weapon doesn't have. Does any one know of a source that can date this weapon based on the numbering?

I'm sorry, I can't say if it is nickel plated for sure. My Mom has the gun with her in Florida; I'm in Maryland. I can only tell you that I remember that is silver in color. Could it be stainless steel given that it is probably early 1930's?

Is it possible that this weapon is pre-WWII, perhaps WWI?

 

[jonnyc]

Yes, that's a 99% Radom, but you're right, it's missing the "hammer lowering lever"! I have never seen that. It is not stainless, but I believe totally devoid of finish. You will need some better pics for a complete ID, but I think that number would date to pre-invasion, pre-September 1939.

 

[RonBernert]

KEEP IT! They're really nice guns, not something to carry every day, due to the fact that parts are getting hard to find.. They perform well, they shoot straight and there IS a little tip of the hat to John Browning.. Many do have minor design variations due to parts shortages, special needs and applications and those (yours) are a little harder to find on the open market... Shoot it and keep it!!

 

[MCgunner]

I know it as the P35 Radom. It was adopted in 1935 by the Polish and the Germans used a good many of 'em after they conquered Poland. Many came back from WW2 as war trophies and I know a guy that inherited one such trophy from his dad. It is a single action 1911 style gun.

 

[zorro66]

Hi Rhippert,
This Radom seem to be a gun put together from the parts after 1939. The frame seem to be a late Polish production since it has a serial number(1939 Polish) however it doesn't have a Polish military inspector marks nor proper blued finish. The slide is an early type and only if gun is disassembled the serial can be found on it. This type of finish was never used by Polish or Germans so likely it was stripped sometime ago.....

 

[Joe in fla]

General info sent by PM but I started looking at this closer and found more.

You said:
"These markings are on the gun:

PANSTWOWEWYTWORNTEUZBROJENIA
next line:

FABRYKABRONIWRADOMIU

On the other side:

VIS cal 9mm

pat n 15567

48190"

This is a VERY odd gun! The serial number indicates that the frame was built shortly before Polish production ended (at ~49,000) in 1939 due to occupation by the Nazis. BUT the missing take down lever is typical of what are called Group 4 Radoms. They were the last produced before the war ended.

As pointed out by others, this in not the original finish for this gun. NONE of the Radoms were chromed, nickeled, etc that I'm aware of.

As I mentioned in the PM, these are officially called "VIS-35"s but are called Radoms since that is the name on the gum. But Radom is actually the name of the town where they were built. F B Radom is generally translated to Weapons Factory Radom although the more literal translation is Factory Weapons Radom.



PANSTWOWE WYTWORNTE UZBROJENIA


FABRYKA BRONIW RADOMIU

Roughly translates to National Ordnance Company Factory (Weapons or Pistol, I THINK!) Radom. The last line is commonly abbreviated as F B Radom. You will note that "FB" and "VIS" are what's marked on the two grips.

The "FABRYKA BRONIW RADOMIU" should be followed by a year and the letter 'r'. For example, "1938r". 'r' stands for Roku or year in Polish.

Given the mix of parts and the fact that it's been chromed, my guess is that this gun was built from parts after the war and then cheaply and poorly chrome plated and sold as a souvenir. I suspect that it's worth more for parts than as a complete gun. However if it's in good condition then it should still be a good shooter, IF you don't mind paying $100 for a magazine!

PS, estimated Polish production (1935 - 1939) 49,000. Estimated German production at Radom (1940 - 1944) 310,000. Estimated production at Steyr in Austria (1945) 40,000.

There's a LOT of history in these guns!

 

[njblklabs]

Viz 35 Hammer spring

Can somebody please send me a picture or tell me where the hammer spring goes on a Vis 35, its about 3/4 inch long less than 1/8 in diameter and does not appear on any diagrams I have seen.

Thank you

 

[918v]

Wouldn't it go in the mainspring housing, just like a 1911?

 

[rust collector]

The mainspring goes in the housing at the bottom rear of the gripframe. It has a cap that bears on the hammer strut. It definitely looks longer than 3/4" in the diagram I linked above.

Are you sure you haven't confused the mainspring with a mag catch spring or some other spring? Is the mainspring in place in the housing? I never had mine apart, but there should only be one spring acting on the hammer.

 

[njblklabs]

Hammer spring

Thanks for the replies
No its not the main spring and if you go to sites like gunbroker, you'll see it in thet rehab kit. I think its what holds the hammer in the cocked position somehow. Like I said, I have not seen it on any parts diagrams.

 

[njblklabs]

Also, the hammer does not remain in a cocked position when pulling it back.

Thx

 

[PabloJ]

I would replace National with Government and VIS is latin for power. I would imagine if one mates Brownings 1911 with Brownings FN Hi-Power this would come out. I have seen pre-war sample in top shape with little eagle stamp on the slide. I looked at price tag and Lets just say it was much higher then early vintage Sig P-210 in top shape. Nice well put together pistol but it's not as nice as Swiss P-210.

 

[walther38]

Here some visual answers to raised here questions.
The hammer spring is 6,5 mm O.D. and approx. 40 mm in length, wire 1 mm O.D.
Walther38

 

[Jim K]

The Radom 1935 is actually a modified Colt Model 1911, not derived from the BHP, with which it has little in common. It is, nonetheless, not really a "copy" of anything; it is a pure Polish design. Stories that it was designed by FN or by engineers from FN are pure myth.

Now comes the interesting part. The PWU marking was not on the production pistols, only on prototypes. That one appears to be a test prototype, made BEFORE the Polish cavalry insisted on installation of a hammer lowering lever. According to what I have read, only one is known to be in existence; if that gun is not it, then there are two and they are very rare. Unlike other guns, no large number of test guns were made; only the one or two.

FWIW, the gun bears every indication of a prototype and appears to have been put through tests, one of which was immersing the gun in water.

It is not nickel or stainless steel, it is bare carbon steel, common for a prototype when there was no point in finishing and bluing the gun. The only jarring note is the grips, which appear to be standard production grips, but they could have been added later.

There is another possibility, raised by the serial number which is too high for a prototype. It could be a pre-occupation frame, with an early slide installed, perhaps built out of the scrap bin in the desperate days of the Polish revolt against the Germans.

Either way, it is truly an interesting gun.

Jim

 

[walther38]

According to my sources the preproduction (after prototypes) pistols had already these regular grips.

The construction, according to my deep analysis of patents designs and years is the "mixture" of 1911 and HP 35. The only two solutions are original - the barrel locking system based on two angled surfaces (not on butt/pin interaction as in HP35) and recoil spring strut system (BTW used in modified version also in short series of Colt 1911 M15 (General Officer Model)
Walther38

Would anybody who has this pistol be willing to help me and verify dimensions stated on the drawing http://img52.imageshack.us/i/pytanie5.jpg/ ? I have no access to the original and trying to make AirSoft replica of it.

 

[buttrap]

They do have a weard recoil strut system indeed and I have had issues with that in the past with the spring retainers failing. It seems a weak point to me in the design or just a lot of use in old guns.

 

[schmidtundveßon]

They are still being made today, so you can ask the factory.

Here's the link:
http://www.lucznik.com.pl/specjalna/specjalnae.html

 

[walther38]

They are still being made today, so you can ask the factory.

Here's the link:
http://www.lucznik.com.pl/specjalna/specjalnae.html

As I know they stopped the production already couple of years ago. Web pages still exist but the company is collapsing/collapsed.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

They did indeed bring back the VIS, but for a short production run, and pistols were about $2000, if I remember correctly. I do not believe that it is currently being produced, even in limited runs.