Polybius and the cycle of government.

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Destructo6

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Thought this might be of interest.

This is from Polybius, book 6, part 2: On the Form of States.
Then as long as some of those survive who experienced the evils of oligarchical dominion, they are well pleased with the present form of government, and set a high value on equality and freedom of speech. But when a new generation arises and the democracy falls into the hands of the grandchildren of its founders, they have become so accustomed to freedom and equality that they no longer value them, and begin to aim at pre-eminence; and it is chiefly those of ample fortune who fall into this error. So when they begin to lust for power and cannot attain it through themselves or their own good qualities, they ruin their estates, tempting and corrupting the people in every possible way. And hence when by their foolish thirst for reputation they have created among the masses an appetite for gifts and the habit of receiving them, democracy in its turn is abolished and changes into a rule of force and violence. For the people, having grown accustomed to feed at the expense of others and to depend for their livelihood on the property of others, as soon as they find a leader who is enterprising but is excluded from the houss of office by his penury, institute the rule of violence; and now uniting their forces massacre, baish, and plunder, until they degenerate again into perfect savages and find once more a master and monarch.
http://www.ukans.edu/history/index/europe/ancient_rome/E/Roman/Texts/Polybius/6*.html

What's interesting is that it was written in about 150BC and before the Empire.

His argument is that government runs through a cycle of: despot, kingship, tyranny, oligarchy, democracy, mob rule, despot, ...

Rome's Republic sought to incorporate the best aspects of each form into a whole that was greater than the sum of its parts.
  • King = Consul
    Oligarchy = Senate
    Democracy = the People
Each form/office has a different power base and should check the power of the others.

Also, the US founding fathers were well familiar with his works.
 
Good post

One can only wonder how many enterprising potential leaders are "excluded from the house of office" by the state-sanctioned monopoly the Demopublicans and Republicrats have on campaign funds in this country.
 
Great Post

Thank you for that wonderful quote. I joined the high road for the access to information and now literature.

This reminds me of the buddhist teaching of birth, old-age, sickness, and death form a cycle that all must endure. Not just organisms, but also organisations.

True: nothing's new under the sun, but we experience each anew.
 
Then the obvious conclusion is why have a government at all? This is the basis of anarchy. Yet the fearful and otherwise cowardly souls will always demand a government in some form. Whether it's basis is belief or religion, law or philosophy or any other, if there truly can be, the sheep will have a shepherd.

What then is to be provided? The constitution has been no better at staving off tyranny than any other form of government devised by men. Many even argue, and rightly so, that the constitution is the root of our tyranny today. We claim to despise the rule of monarchy yet it has surpassed the length of the existence of the constitution by many times with no more ill effect than we endure today under the constitution.

To a large degree, size does matter. In the case of any nation-state of note they worked unceasingly to increase their physical boundaries. This is done until a certain point is reached where that nation-state can no longer exert effective influence and control. It then begins the process of receding or, if instantaneous, it implodes or collapses in on itself. The only difference between these then is the length of time. The end result will always be the same, an ultimate collapse or demise. For centuries, even millenia, the human race has toyed with and experimented with the concept of the nation-state yet the drive for expansion into something much larger has always worked against it's success.

It is in this aspect of size where it can said that the Articles of Confederation was superior to the the current US Constitution. Under the AoC the several states retained a good portion of their individual sovereignty. With this scheme the united States truly was a republic. Of the existing states under that scheme the drive toward expansion was checked by the existence of the neighboring state or a natural boundary. By centralizing political power and authority into the central government as devised in the constitution our path to tyranny and our demise was cast. The central government was made free to expand it's control and authority as far as it could. The states and even the people were made powerless to stop it.

This, as described above, is but one of the many ways in which we were deceived by the actions of certain men among the founders. In the process of centralizing authority and control, great power was vested in a group of men who were duly authorized by this same constitution to further empower themselves as they might think. Art.1, Sec.8, cl.18 is a perfect example of this. Others of a similar nature are sprinkled liberally about the document. Even the highly vaunted (and highly diluted) Bill of Rights was or is NOT able to restrain this body who was empowered to freely wield both sword and purse to gain what they would. This high degree of empowerment was clearly pointed out by the anti-consolidationists (later called anti-Federalists) as the course that would bring us to where we are today. Yet through craft and deceit the federalists prevailed.

Now, I do not argue that the Articles of Confederation were wholly superior in every way. They too, had their short-comings as a scheme to initiate and perpetuate a limited government. Despite it's short-comings though, it remains more true to the promises of freedom, liberty and limited government than the current device.

If you wish to investigate this argument in more detail than I present here, I would encourage you to click through to www.project-exodus.org and peruse the forums there. Ask questions, join the discussion/debate. It will tax your thinking and challenge certain conceptions of how government could work.

Chipper
 
Honestly, I haven't read Polybius. Other than a quote here and there, such as the one that opened this thread. I'm waaaay behind on my reading list.

Chipper
 
Apparently Alexander Tytler was a student of Publius back in the 1700's:

A democracy can not exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the Public Treasury...with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through this sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; from spiritual faith to great courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to selfishness; from selfishness to complacency; from complacence to apathy; from apathy to dependence; from dependency back again into bondage."
One of my all-time favorite quotes.
 
Bob Locke,

Apparently Alexander Tytler was a student of Publius back in the 1700's:

Perhaps you meant he was a student of Polybius. Publius is a somewhat common Roman name. It was also used by James Madison as a pseudonym when he penned a number of the Federalist Papers.

The Federalist Papers, though eloquent and are claimed to embody the intent of a few of the founders, they amount to little more than a fine "sales job" for ratifying the constitution. Madison later realized his error in supporting the ratification of the constitution and set about to ameliorate it's consequences in a manner similar to what most of the patriotic persuasion pursue today, a return to the "original intent" of the constitution.

Chipper
 
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