Polymer Pistol Perjuries

[TimboKhan]

This thread is not intended to spark a 1911/Glock battle, start an argument about why you should buy a Glock or an XD or whatever else or to spread lies about polymer pistols (and, I guess, rifles and carbines) This thread is for new shooters and curious folks to ask questions about polymer pistols and to get reasonable answers to those questions.

I got the idea for this thread here: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=3568085#post3568085

Where a guy brought this up:

Plastics are made with petroleum products. That means they contain what is known as "aromatics". They actually evaorate from the base materials over time.

The blue haze you find on the inside of your car windshield is not from cigarette smoke. It's from the aromatics that evaporate out of the plastics used in the interior, notably the dashboard, which condense on the cooler windshield.

A good friend is an engineer at the GM proving grounds in Mesa AZ. He gave me a tour once. While there, I noticed a bunch of cars parked out in an empty field. Upon examination, I noticed that the windshields were so fogged as to be opaque. When I asked who smoked in them, he told me that they are test vehicles, used to see how fast and how bad the aromatics in the plastics evaporate, and how the base materials degrade and fall apart.

That process is a natural one in plastic. No matter how many people claim they have old Glocks, science won't be denied.

Now, I'm not a plastics engineer but the above makes sense to me. What are y'alls feelings on this?

And received answers like the following:

Depends on the plastic (polymer). The material that collects in cars is actually mostly from the foam padding in the seats, not from the vinyls. Most polyvinyl plastics are extremely stable - so stable that they are a problem for landfills. The polymers typically used in handgun frames can probably be expected to last hundreds if not thousands of years - far longer than any steel parts. These platics are designed to resist chemical breakdown even in the presence of strong solvents found in some gun cleaning products.

BTW, not all plastics contain aromatics. Aromatics are a specific organic compound - so names becausde many have distictive smells. Aromatics are distinguised by their carbon rings structures. Most polymer plastics are composed of long chain hydrocarbons, often with halogens.

These were two interesting and helpful answers that helped to dispell a myth about Glocks. It struck me that others probably had some questions, and that some of us might know the answers to those questions. Anyway, we will see. This thread will either be helpful, or will go down in flames! (literally and metaphorically, I guess...)

 

[mjrodney]

The polymers typically used in handgun frames can probably be expected to last hundreds if not thousands of years - far longer than any steel parts.

No definitive proof is available yet to support that statement....and you will not find any knowledgable source within the polymer industry who would be willing to contractually bind themselves with such a claim. Not with today's technology, in any case.

My background in polymer technology might support a 100 year life span for some composites, but that's about it.

As an example, North Carolina's Bridge Renovation program is using an advanced fiber/polymer wrap to reinforce bridge columns. Advertised life span is 100 years, but I still would love to be able to review the contract and it's warranty provisions. I'll bet it's pro-rated like a cheap tire.

If material were available to extend that longevity span, it would definitely be used.

In any case, the composite material might last longer if you could move that material to a non-stressful environment free from temperature swings, the elements, oils and solvents, sunlight, etc, but bridges don't work that way.

Neither can handgun frames made from today's polymer technologies. No one owns a hundred year old polymer handgun frame yet to prove the point, but I suspect that very few of those made today, those that are used and not safe queens, will still be functional in 2107. Even safe queens are likely to suffer some degradation of material properties.

Nothing is forever, and polymers can be included in that statement.

Steel can be included in that statement as well, of course, but we have ample evidence of well maintained steel lasting hundreds of years.

And that can be evidenced in any firearm museum.

Many of the steel firearms in that museum can still be used with the loadings they were designed to use.

Civil War rifles and handguns, Napoleon's cannons, all are likely still functional.

And a hundred years from now, in 2107, this will likely still remain true.

IMHO, if you want to have a firearm of today's vintage, available to be passed down to future generations, cared for steel frames will give you the best chance to do exactly that.

 

[Shipwreck]

Geeze... If ya don't like polymer guns, don't buy one.

 

[mjrodney]

Don't get me wrong.

That post was an engineer in the morning expressing a few thoughts on the longevity issue.

(Where's my pocket protector?)

I'm not against polymer firearms.

They function and they certainly have their place in my own safe, as well as in the safe of others.

They just won't be around as long as Napolean's 12 pounders.

 

[mballai]

A Glock represents maybe an average guy's weekly salary if bought new. Definitely less than the monthly rent or mortgage. It lasts 20 years. There are plenty of functional first gen Glocks to prove that. Less than a dime a day. Does it really matter if it turns to goop after that?

 

[Shipwreck]

A Glock represents maybe an average guy's weekly salary if bought new. Definitely less than the monthly rent or mortgage. It lasts 20 years. There are plenty of functional first gen Glocks to prove that. Less than a dime a day. Does it really matter if it turns to goop after that?

Look at the polymer Hks made before Glocks were made - They have been around even longer.

 

[Dorryn]

A ceramic Glock 7 would last longer than steel: Ceramic lasts forever unless reduced to dust.

 

[Eightball]

A Glock represents maybe an average guy's weekly salary if bought new. Definitely less than the monthly rent or mortgage. It lasts 20 years. There are plenty of functional first gen Glocks to prove that. Less than a dime a day. Does it really matter if it turns to goop after that?

It does if I plan to keep the firearm for a few decades! Not that I would for a Glock (ergos just don't work for me), but it's the principle of the matter. For something that you need to rely on now, sure--for something that your grandkids can rely on when new production weapons have been banned? Well......I'm leaning towards the metal. I know that there are some early plastic toys my Grandma had in her basement that are in....questionable condition however many years later, and I would most certainly not wish the same upon any firearm I might purchase. Yes, I know it's not the same plastic, science has done this, that, and the other to plastics, etc, it's just the principle of the matter, I would assume.

 

[mjrodney]

A ceramic Glock 7 would last longer than steel

Oh, I can see the torture test posts now.

Glock tossed from the International Space Station survives re-entry!

 

[DevilDog0402]

The Polymer in today's pistols will outlast me (and probably my kids). That's all I care about.

 

[jkomp316]

most firearms today have some polymer peices in them. might have a steel slide or an aluminum frame, but most have plastic peices. do you think MIM peices will last 100+ years?

 

[Prince Yamato]

For what it's worth, Bakelite grips from WWI are still on guns from that era and seem to have survived aging just fine. I would assume tennifer would last just as long. Strong plastics last quite a long time. Anyone every had an IBM PS/2 "clickey" keyboard? I have one from 1984 and I dropped it a good distance on a wood floor. No cracks or blemishes. My point is, whatever a Glock is made of is better than that PS/2 keyboard from over 20 years ago. So therefore a Glock would at least last 20+ years. I'd assume 100 years with proper care.

 

[chieftain]

do you think MIM peices will last 100+ years?

Yup. Quality MIM will last as long as any other quality made piece of the exactly same alloy by any other process.

Now poorly made non-MIM parts will not last as long. That fact thing screws up another myth.

As to Glock's and many of the other quality "plastic" weapons lasting. Remember the fellow who used the museum weapons?

I believe that if the Glock's are as well cared for as the steel weapons, I would expect them to last quite a long time too. As long, I doubt it but several hundred years may be practical. Longer than I will be worrying about.

The other issue is, as with those weapons stored in the museum, how many of those weapons would be used in modern combat, effectively today?

Obsolete is obsolete regardless as to whether they are still pretty or functional. For collectors and hobbyists wonderful, for those who live by the gun, it frankly doesn't matter. Working guns should be of the latest successful designs and used accordingly. Could they be used, sure. But who would choose them first?

Many folks would drag out the old saw about the old 1911's. Yea, change the sights, don't use modern hollow points, and you would have to use "new" parts to keep them shooting in the volumes of shooting most modern weapons are put to. Those old weapons were not shot as often as modern guns. Many/most would not have stood up any better than our weapons today.

Go figure.

Fred

 

[Sistema1927]

So, what you are saying is that if I leave my polymer pistol on my dashboard I might have to clean the inside of my car windows more frequently?

 

[jkomp316]

if you leave it in the sun, under a magnifying glass, for 10yrs. the frame might become brittle? i suppose, at least it doesnt rust? if you left your steel 1911 in the curb for 1 wisconsin winter, it prob wouldnt ever work right again.

 

[10-Ring]

Really tho...don't you thing we'll all be dead before any of our Glocks evaporates?

 

[fletcher]

My take is, in the time frames we have to deal with (life-span), it's not going to be an issue. I prefer steel frames because of the feel, but a plastic frame is not necessarily any worse than a steel one.

Hard polymers typically do not possess the toughness of metals, but a composite may be able to attain a comparable strength-toughness at reduced weight.

If polymer framed guns were going to break, I think we all would have heard about how bad they are by now. They've certainly been around long enough.

 

[bruss01]

I've seen some old plastics. They tend to become brittle with age. I don't know if modern polymers will exhibit this characteristic, or exhibit it more slowly or to a lesser degree.

I have both poly-frame and metal-frame firearms. I expect both of them to be around longer than I will. Time will tell if this turns out to be the case.

 

[TimboKhan]

Given that heat seems to be the point that we all agree might eventually cause the downfall of a polymer frame, couldn't you do a test wherein enough heat is applied for a long enough time to accurately simulate how much the polymer would degrade within a set period of time? I know it isn't an actual 100 years, but it seems like it would be fairly simple to simulate 100 years of use and abuse. I dunno, maybe it's already been done...

 

[xring44]

Yeah,,well, I don't even buy green banana's anymore,,so poly would probably work for me But I don't own any, guns should be made from steel and walnut.

 

[Geronimo45]

couldn't you do a test wherein enough heat is applied for a long enough time to accurately simulate how much the polymer would degrade within a set period of time?

Microwave!

 

[AndyC]

I'm the guilty party who raised the question. TimboKhan, I think you meant "heresies", not "perjuries"

For me, the curiosity isn't so much about myself in terms of "I want a pistol that will last my whole life" - rather, it's more a function of "What could/would I leave to my great-grandchildren?"

 

[Jason_G]

Quality plastics should last a good long time. Look at the old Remington nylon rifles and the first of the polymer framed pistols that were introduced by H&K 20+ yrs ago. They are still in excellent condition where they have been properly cared for. I don't think they will be degrading any time soon. Time will have to tell.

Jason

 

[GunTech]

The HK VP-70 came out in 1970. I'd be curious to see how they stand up after almost 40 years.

While polymers may not posses the 'toughness' of steel, it has already been demonstrated that the don't fatigue like steels either. There are several Glocks that have a documented 300,000 rounds through them - something no steel or alloy gun have ever even come close to. During Chuck Taylors attempted Glock 'test to destruction' they gave up at 175,000 rounds.

 

[Princi]

So scare me guys. I spent $36,000 last year having my roof replaced with a polymer product (Tamko). We had a hail storm this spring and all the neighbors are getting new roofs. I didn't need one. Polymer is tough.

What I had before (after the original wood shingles), was the Hardishake, which was a cement-fiber product. Cement absorbs water, freezes, expands,... you get the picture. Hopefully, the polymer won't disintegrate in the Texas sun.