Polymer Pistol Perjuries

[Zoogster]

Many polymers degrade over time. Certain things rapidly increase this. One of the simple things is UV light. Glock polymers in fact have small additives to help resist this somewhat.

I reviewed the Glock polymer recipe once, and I believe it was something similar to predominantly nylon 6 with a small percent of additives to change properties. Don't think items of nylon fabric, think solid block, dense durable plastic.

Well it will still hold its shape and be fine after some time, but after time it would become more brittle and a drop or impact that would be absorbed without damage now would crack it then.

Metal firearms on the other hand will last forever if protected from corrosion and oxidation. This means a well oiled steel firearm will last centuries and be just as durable then. Now the number of fired rounds in the short term may be similar.

Personaly I think the days of the best firearm production are gone. When real heavy hardwoods were used for stocks. When solid forged steel was used.
When there was no question you had a solid reliable firearm that could take serious abuse, not just fire many rounds.

This applies even to rifles. How long do you think a modern AR will be a nice weapon with mediocre care? How long did BARs last? Garands? I think the M14 will last a long time as well. That was the last nice standard battle rifle IMHO.
Of course that hardly matters because you get presidents like Clinton ordering the destruction of all those old stockpiles of fine working firearms that would last centuries. :banghead:



Now if people all had thier own polymer molds then there would be a significant advantage to Polymer pistols. The amount of polymer to make a pistol would probably cost you all of $10. The slide and small components would total more. Seriously how much do you think bulk Nylon costs? If you had a crack, or abrasion, or just wear, you could toss it back in the mold, add a little extra Polymer and remelt it as good as new.
I remember hearing the cost of a Glock if cost was factored in relative to other firearms would be around $100. That it mainly costs more because it is priced in accordance with firearms of similar quality, reliability, and capability. Pricing it much lower would in fact probably make many view it as cheap and inferior due to the "get what you pay for" mentality.
The slide costs more to manufacture than the reciever.
You don't have many cutting parts to wear out melting plastic. No forging, stamping etc. This means not just cheaper in materials, but cheaper to manufacture over time. You just melt in desired shape and give some finishing touches, add other components and good to go. It also means you can create the perfect shape very easily. Going from concept to production takes very little effort with polymer if you got a good action.

 

[marksman13]

Well, I guess I'll just be honest. I don't know if my XD will be here 150 years from now. I do know, however, with reasonable certainty that I won't. If my great, great grandkids want something of mine my CZ should still be around. That is of course, if there are any guns 150 years from now. Buy a plastic, enjoy it, wear it out, repeat. By the way, let me know when you manage to wear it out.

 

[LightningJoe]

Well, they're going to bury my P-32 with me, so who cares?

 

[TimboKhan]

I'm the guilty party who raised the question. TimboKhan, I think you meant "heresies", not "perjuries"

haha! Andy, I thought you raised a very interesting question, and I liked that you recieved some nice, reasonable answers to those questions. As for the "perjuries" issue, I was just going for something catchy is all.

By way of a little self-moderation/commentary, I was sort of hoping that we would get some other polymer questions going as opposed to just talking about the durability of polymers, although I do find it interesting. I would also like to thank everyone for keeping it pretty much on-topic.

Here are a few things that I thought might come up that maybe we can address...

Polymers: More or less accurate than steel?
Will a ploymer melt like a ice cube on a hot day?
Torture tests: Useful or Evil marketing ploy?
Polymer vs. Steel: A realistic examination of the pros and cons of each.
Maintenance: Polymers or steel easier to maintain over the short term?
Dependability: Are polymers as dependable day in and day out as steel? If not, give precise, factual reasons as to why or why not.

 

[chieftain]

Given that heat seems to be the point that we all agree might eventually cause the downfall of a polymer frame, couldn't you do a test wherein enough heat is applied for a long enough time to accurately simulate how much the polymer would degrade within a set period of time? I know it isn't an actual 100 years, but it seems like it would be fairly simple to simulate 100 years of use and abuse. I dunno, maybe it's already been done...

Let's bury one of my Glocks and one of my Colt Governments in the yard. In 5 Years, which one do you think may still be usable?

My point exactly. Sun may be the problem for the polymers, moisture is the problem for steel. In my life I have seen many weapons of steel rusting literally to pieces. Can't say that about any polymer based weapons.

Pick your poison.

Maintain either appropriately and they both will probably have a long life.

Go figure.

Fred

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

Originally posted by Shipwreck:
Geeze... If ya don't like polymer guns, don't buy one.

The best answer of all of these.

 

[GunTech]

The whole steel vs polymer thing is pretty funny, and in some ways is a classic 'things were better in the old days' sort of argument. Modern polymers vary wildly and many surpass the strength of steels. Plastics used in guns, aircraft and even spacecraft are not the same thing they use to make cheap toys in china.

It has been proven that polymer franed handguns resist fatugue much better than steel. They are generally more resistant to acids and bases than steel allows. They don't rust.

On the down side, the are typically less abrasion resistent and the initial cost of forming dies can be very high. They can't be easily modified, refinished, etc after casting/molding.

The molds needed to make a frame likc the Glock can easily cost over $100,000, so you have to make a lot before the cost is amortized. But if you are making thousand of frames, plastic moulding becomes even cheaper than stamping. Glock frames actually cost oennies to make. It is the least expensive part of the gun.

Finally, it should be recalled that the slide runs on steel rails embedded in the polymer.

Some people just don't like plastic. I don't, much preferring classic blued steel. But when it comes to pure utility, few handguns match the Glock in terms of durability, price andreliability. No steel or allow frame handgun made can come close to matching the number of rounds that can be put through a Glock - 300,000 + for at least two examples.

BTW, anybody want to guess the lifetime of a plastic milk jug?

 

[zinj]

I think it is interesting that people are mentioning how steel frames rust, yet forget that the same effect will occur on the steel parts of their polymer framed guns. (And yes, many poly guns have special finishes applied to those parts, but there is no reason such a finish cannot be applied to a steel frame.)

 

[hksw]

Plastics are made with petroleum products. That means they contain what is known as "aromatics". They actually evaorate from the base materials over time.

The blue haze you find on the inside of your car windshield is not from cigarette smoke. It's from the aromatics that evaporate out of the plastics used in the interior, notably the dashboard, which condense on the cooler windshield.

A good friend is an engineer at the GM proving grounds in Mesa AZ. He gave me a tour once. While there, I noticed a bunch of cars parked out in an empty field. Upon examination, I noticed that the windshields were so fogged as to be opaque. When I asked who smoked in them, he told me that they are test vehicles, used to see how fast and how bad the aromatics in the plastics evaporate, and how the base materials degrade and fall apart.

That process is a natural one in plastic. No matter how many people claim they have old Glocks, science won't be denied.

Now, I'm not a plastics engineer but the above makes sense to me. What are y'alls feelings on this?

IMO, I think the guy's friend's field in Engineering at GM does not center around plastics and polymers.

As noted above by others, aromatics are a class of organic chemicals that usually have a particulr structure (i.e., cyclic organic hexagonal rings, organic meaning carbon based). A lot of parts within a vehicle are made out of plastics/polymers (not necessarily aromatic). Some, like the dashboard, are specified by the car manufacturer to be soft to the touch. To make some plastics/polymers more flexible and/or soft, additives are blended into them to make them so. These are usually plasticizers. These additives may, themselves, be aromatic but not necessarily so. They are also usually liquid at room temperature. Base plastics/polymers that are formed into shapes of parts in vehicles are solid in the environments they are designed for. When the parts are molded with the plasticizer added plastics/polymers, the plasticizers stay within the plastic/polymer matrix for a while. Over time, however, particularly when subjected to heat, they will tend to migrate out (remember, they are usually in liquid form). As a result, some of the plasticizers will evaporate and collect on the windshields. When they do leave the matrix, the plastic/polymer will become more stiff and in the end brittle. Another example is a plastic lawn chair that has been sitting out in the sun for a long time. Eventually the plasticizer will migrate to the surface and a tacky film will develop.

Firearms don't require as much, if any depending on the grade of plastic, plasticizer to give them some flex which helps in absorbing shock. Most plastics in this function don't require plasticizers but the polymer chains of the plastic will certainly degrade over time from heat, stress, free radicals, etc. It'll take tens if not hundresd of years to get them brittle, though.

 

[unspellable]

The handles on things in the wife's car such as the windshield wiper, glove box, gas hatch release, etc., dry out and crumble. Where upon my wife accuses me of reefing on them. Wish I could convince her that they just get delicate with age.

 

[GaryP]

There are several Glocks that have a documented 300,000 rounds through them - something no steel or alloy gun have ever even come close to

There are WWII era and earlier manufactured 1911's out there that ended up in training commands that were still around and being used in the mid 1960's and were still being shot many tens of thousands of rounds a year. Yes small parts and barrels were being replaced but the original frames were still being used. It is frames we are discussing right (Polymer, steel, or alloy)? The last part of your statement is incorrect and can not be validated! I would bet many of these training command 1911's have well over half a million rounds through them.