Post 86 Machine Guns - May become possible - Nolo lawyer 12K in donations

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Mr. Stamboulieh / sig55682

This is a worthy cause. However, as I am sure you are aware, an unsuccessful Second Amendment case sets the whole movement back as much as a victory advances it. We will only get one shot at this in the Supreme Court - if we get one at all. As such, I'd like a bit more information about you and the other attorneys who will be bringing this case before donating any money. For example:

- How many Appeals have you won?
- How may of those were in Federal Court?
- Would you be able to provide the citations to the opinions, so that we can review the briefing?
- Did you clerk? If so, on which Court(s)?
- Are you working on this case with any regular Supreme Court shops or experts (e.g. Alan Gura, Paul Clement, Institute for Justice, Gibson Dunn, Nelson Lund)?
- Which circuit will you bring this case in, and why?
- Has this lawsuit been blessed by the NRA? If not, what is your plan for dealing with a Seegars v. Ashcroft situation?

I look forward to your response.
 
What may come out of this is a reversal of the decision to allow trusts to acquire NFA items.
 
What if the Hughes Amendment along with FOPA 86 gets thrown out. Or what if the Hughes Amendment stays in and FOPA 86 gets thrown out. (Unlikely, but I had to ask the question).
.
 
Based on Heller etc... I can easily see keeping the NFA requirement to register machine guns but allowing folks to buy new ones. It would seem that the courts have already made it clear that a complete ban is unlawful which is what we have today (a phasing out).
If Obama gets to appoint one more USSC judge we are screwed for sure... Or maybe the high court would take a pass all together. At the end of the day, machine guns are toys for the gun community and the tangible benefit to the general public would be hard to argue and you'll have to fight law enforcement on this issue the entire way.
You also have those gun folks that paid 40k for a Thompson, 10k for a lightning link or 5k for a MAC10 who wouldn't be happy with their "investments" value falling by ~95% if the law changed.
I would certainly support the effort to change the law but at this point I am more concerned about holding onto the guns i currently own.
 
tepin said:
...It would seem that the courts have already made it clear that a complete ban is unlawful ...
Click to expand...
And that's not necessarily all that clear. See District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008), at 626 (emphasis added):
...Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited. From Blackstone through the 19th-century cases, commentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose....
Click to expand...
 
Federal courts seldom "throw out" a federal law. The NFA has withstood the test of time.

Heller was not a resounding victory for our gun rights. So far as i know: Since the Heller and MacDonald decisions the SCOTUS has turned away all appeals based on Second Amendment grounds. Last session SCOTUS declined to hear a case that could have resolved an appeals court split.
 
tepin said:
Based on Heller etc... I can easily see keeping the NFA requirement to register machine guns but allowing folks to buy new ones. It would seem that the courts have already made it clear that a complete ban is unlawful which is what we have today (a phasing out).
If Obama gets to appoint one more USSC judge we are screwed for sure... Or maybe the high court would take a pass all together. At the end of the day, machine guns are toys for the gun community and the tangible benefit to the general public would be hard to argue and you'll have to fight law enforcement on this issue the entire way.
You also have those gun folks that paid 40k for a Thompson, 10k for a lightning link or 5k for a MAC10 who wouldn't be happy with their "investments" value falling by ~95% if the law changed.
I would certainly support the effort to change the law but at this point I am more concerned about holding onto the guns i currently own.
Click to expand...
Heller would not work. There are about 182,000 transferable machine guns. Close to half of those are owned by museums and law enforcement agencies, even though LEAs can purchase and register new ones. Less than 100,000 of those are in private hands in a nation of 300,000,000 plus. When only 40,000-50,000 (probably less) people in the US own a transferable machine gun that kills a common use argument. I also remember machine guns being exempt in the decision.
 
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Cooldill said:
And what happens to all the money if he doesn't win?? :confused:
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It says right in the OP link:

"All donations will be held in my lawyer trust account. As we work on the cases and "bill" time to the case, the trust account will be debited. If we get $10,000 in donations, and my fees/expenses total $50,000, then I will only be paid the $10,000. If we get $100,000 in donations, and my fees/expenses are $50,000, we will hold the funds in trust until such time as the appeals are exhausted (if necessary) or the remainder is donated to a Second Amendment right group. It is important to know that I WILL NOT KEEP ANY UNEARNED DONATED FUNDS! Period. I doubt that will be an issue due to the breadth and number of cases, but I want to be upfront."

Based on their gun collections, there are quite a few moneyed individuals on The High Road.
$20-30 probably isn't too much of a stretch for a lot of people here.

I don't really believe this will go anywhere long term, but it is nice to see the effort.

There is some good information and discussion in a thread in the AR15.com General Discussion section, if you can put up with a lot of the general stupidity that accompanies it.
 
When only 40,000-50,000 (probably less) people in the US own a transferable machine gun that kills a common use argument. I also remember machine guns being exempt in the decision.
Click to expand...
It could be argued they are NOT in common use BECAUSE of the ban.
 
Interesting indeed. Although the chances aren't in our favor, I will remain hopeful. Besides, if we don't try, it is a 100% chance of failure.

Glad to see he raised enough money that he currently requires to challenge this unconstitutional law.
 
from what i read it said the judge said the 86 machine gun ban was unconstitutional.. which it really is
 
Best line in the article: "... it seems inconceivable for the government to contend that it trusts citizens to own machine guns manufactured before May of 1986, but anything functionally-identical made after that is just too dangerous for “civilians” to possess."
 
The political timing on this is simply not ripe, there's no real "need" as viewed by society, and it's relatively unimportant to nearly every leader in the Legislative Branch, and will garner NO support from the anti-gun Executive. Legal challenges (if done in the SCOTUS today) would at best get 5 yes and 4 no votes. And given the swing vote we saw in Heller, and rationale, we could very well lose in the SCOTUS today. If the timing works against the 2A side, Mr. Obama may very well get 1 or 2 more appointees in the SCOTUS right around the time such a gun case might reach the Court, and put the nail in the coffin with at least 5 no votes.

The risk with premature actions like this is doing more harm than good.

The timing is simply not good for such actions. The stars will need to align just right for this to happen, and it's simply not ripe in 2015 perhaps for another decade or more and stacked Executive, Legislative, and Judicial branches.
 
wow, i get so sick and tired of listening to fudds and their defeatist attitudes that we shouldnt try to repeal pass gun control atrocities on the grounds that there is no "need".. when something infringes on our constitutional rights there will ALWAYS be a need to defeat such measures
 
leadcounsel said:
The political timing on this is simply not ripe, there's no real "need" as viewed by society, and it's relatively unimportant to nearly every leader in the Legislative Branch, and will garner NO support from the anti-gun Executive. Legal challenges (if done in the SCOTUS today) would at best get 5 yes and 4 no votes. And given the swing vote we saw in Heller, and rationale, we could very well lose in the SCOTUS today. If the timing works against the 2A side, Mr. Obama may very well get 1 or 2 more appointees in the SCOTUS right around the time such a gun case might reach the Court, and put the nail in the coffin with at least 5 no votes.

The risk with premature actions like this is doing more harm than good.

The timing is simply not good for such actions. The stars will need to align just right for this to happen, and it's simply not ripe in 2015 perhaps for another decade or more and stacked Executive, Legislative, and Judicial branches.
Click to expand...
You have a pre '86 collection that could lose value don't you? :)
 
justin22885 said:
wow, i get so sick and tired of listening to fudds and their defeatist attitudes that we shouldnt try to repeal pass gun control atrocities on the grounds that there is no "need".. when something infringes on our constitutional rights there will ALWAYS be a need to defeat such measures
Click to expand...

He didn't say there was no need, he said society didn't see the need. That's why you do some PR first, and that's what politicians listen to--it gets them votes.

There's always a need, but unless the people in charge know that, it's likely a losing proposition. We just need to pick our timing.

Discretion and valor, and all that.
 
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