powder position

[murf]

saturday i went out to the range to test a new 45lc "plinking" load. i had run out of my old load and decided to try something new since the old load was a bit inaccurate.

old load: 255gn lrnfp, 13.0 gn bluedot, cci300, medium/heavy crimp
new load: 255gn lrnfp, 11.0 gn bluedot, cci300, medium/heavy crimp

the first cylinder full ran through the chrony at around 730 fps with an e.s. of 26; not bad. the second cylinder full averaged 750 fps and the e.s. was 105; what gives here.

what i realized after i shot the second cylinder full is that this powder in this big case may be position sensitive. so, i started playing with the position before the shot.

six shots holding the gun down and shaking then raising slowly for the shot: 750 fps average, 50 e.s.

six shots holding the gun up and shaking then lowering slowly for the shot: 830 fps average, 41 e.s.

i have read a few articles on position sensitive powders and just kind of ignored it. i blamed this old loads performance on a bad bullet, but it seems like i have a problem with powder position sensitivity.

i'm going to work up another load with w231 and see how it goes. i'll add the results.

murf

 

[murf]

255gn lrnfp, 7.0gn w231, cci300

bbl down: 788, 779, 786, 781, na, avg. 785, 9 es

bbl up: 802, 813, 817, 816, 804 avg. 810, 15 es

i like the es numbers, too bad the overall es is 36. still position sensitive. unique is up next.

note: these loads are at the upper range for normal 45 long colt loads. i'm starting here only because i shoot them in a ruger blackhawk and, therefore, these are starting "ruger only" loads.

murf

 

[Parman]

Interesting observation. I'll have to keep that in mind while testing loads.

 

[murf]

getting better, but we can do better still, i think!

255gn lrnfp, 9.0gn unique, cci 300, med/hvy crimp

bbl down: 961, 959, 953, 951, 947 avg. 955, es 14

bbl up: 994, 977, 1000, 987, 999 avg. 990, es 23

i like the "down" numbers, but the "up" numbers are a bit squirrelly.

up next: hs-6 and a cci 350 primer.

murf

 

[murf]

well, hs-6 winds up worse than unique. i messed up and put cci 300 primers in the cases, so that means another test to see if hs-6 really cares if it gets a mag primer, or not.

cci300 bbl down: 819, 803, 819, 806, 820 avg. 815, es 17
bbl up: 882, 876, 928, 861, 882 avg. 890, es 67
cci 350 bbl down: 828, 809, 833, 829, 821 avg. 825, es 24
bbl up: 889, 910, 956, 952, 910 avg. 925, es 67

well, i'm running out of powders to try. i could try bullseye, but don't have much hope there. i don't have any bulky mid-range pistol powders. h110 is out, as i'm not hotrodding this load. we'll see.

oh, the mag primer gets a bit more velocity, but is a bit more erratic. i'm going to stick with the mag primers here.

murf

 

[stubbicatt]

I have found that Unique is probably less position sensitive than other powders I have tried. I attribute that to the supposed fact that the kernels of powder are "uncoated." It works even in really big cases like the old black powder rifle cases, and it works pretty well too.

 

[Walkalong]

well, hs-6 winds up worse than unique.

Unique downloads better, that's for sure. HS-6 likes it hot. Unique is a little better than average on being position sensitive. And of course how light the load is and how much extra case space all makes a difference.

AA #2, True Blue, WST, & Competition, are some of the least position sensitive.

700X and Solo 1000 are pretty good.

Solo 1250 was awesome, but it is discontinued.

Lead is much better than plated or jacketed when it comes to powder position.

 

[243winxb]

I like the standard vs mag primer test. Interesting.

 

[murf]

temp is fifty degrees, cloudy and windy. perfect for good readings with the chrony.

the w231 looked the tightest out of the bunch, so i bumped the load .5 grains (note: this is .3 grains above max for the regular 45 long colt load data. use at your own risk.) to try and make 900 fps and ran the test again.

255gn lrnfp, 7.5gn w231, cci300, med/hvy crimp

bbl down: 828, 830, 811, 806, 811 avg. 822, 24 es
bbl up: 851, 855, 863, 862, 859 avg. 858, 12es

i like the "bbl up" numbers, so i'm going to bump the load up another .2 grains (still looking for 900 fps) and add a little trick and see if i can't get em all at a 12 es.

murf

 

[murf]

walkalong,

i was surprised that the hs-6 load burned real clean. like you say this powder likes it hot. my mid-range load for this gun is a 265 lswc with 14.5 grains (caution: ruger only load here!!!) of hs-6 and a cci 350 primer. it runs a 1200 fps mv and is super accurate. i don't think i'm getting enough heat with the above load and think i'll stick to w231 for now (although i might experiment with unique down the road).

243winxb,

i was surprised the variance was so small. was looking for a bigger dif.

murf

 

[RecoilRob]

Years ago I was loading 45 Colt with 231 and I had one do something really weird and it was WAY hot! Now...I'm absolutely positive this wasn't a double-charge because those were all individually weighed and no way were they off even a tenth of a grain. The first 4 shot normally then the fifth lit UP with a large muzzle flash and magnum sounding BOOOM!

My buddy shooting in the next lane looked at me and said 'What the hell was that?' so even he noticed the report and flash. Darned if I know for sure, but suspected that the powder had distributed around the case due to static or something and the whole charge went off instantly rather than with a progressive burn. I've read a lot on the subject and it's kind of a Voodo thing and difficult to reproduce enough to say it's a scientific fact...but that made me a believer that very small charges of even fast pistol powder in a big case can cause problems. Been using Unique ever since and try to keep charge density up as much as possible. Good luck and I hope you don't have problems with the 231 experiment!

Have you played with Trail-Boss? That looks like it would fill the case all the way to the top if you wanted and would likely have very small variables if the velocity was suitable to your needs. Next time I load up a batch of Colt I'm going to give it a try and see how it does.

 

[murf]

well, that didn't work. i loaded up 7.7gn w231 and put toilet paper on top to fill the gap (didn't stuff it in just put a wad in).

bbl down: 816, 1173, 1090, 826, 820 avg. 945, es 257
bbl up: 850, 794, 840, 839, 828 avg. 830, es 56

sometimes the tp blew out the end of the barrel, sometimes not. i won't be doing that "tp" thing again.

recoilrob,

thanks for the trailboss recommendation. i don't think that powder will get me to 900 fps, but i'll look it up in the manual and check it out.

up next is the 7.7gn load w/o the toilet paper. i want to check the crony and make sure today's numbers are right. also, another round of unique at about 8.5 grains will be sent down range.

murf

 

[FROGO207]

Instead of using the TP go to a craft store and get a bag of pillow stuffing, it works much better. It will melt and blow out the barrel with the hot gasses.

 

[murf]

decided to clean the blackhawk after the tp test. she was quite dirty with a bit of lead buildup on the forcing cone. other than that, she was good to go.

i decided to just go with the unique @ 8.5 and 8.0 grains. the chrony test will have to wait (i think direct sunlight taints the results, but that will have to wait for another test).

8.5gn unique:

bbl down: 901, 934, 907, 930, 923 avg. 920, 33 es
bbl up: 953, 962, 962, 960, 942 avg. 955, 20 es

8.0gn unique:

bbl down: 863, 872, 854, 858, 859 avg. 865, 14 es
bbl up: 932, 932, 924, 929, 943 avg. 933, 19 es

murf

 

[murf]

all the unique loads (8.0, 8.5, 9.0 grains) are 35 fps delta down/up and 15/20 fps es down/up. that is quite a bit of consistency over a quite a large velocity spread. i'm impressed, and see why unique (probably the old rsq powder found in the old army 1909 revolvers) is the "go to" powder for the 45 long colt.

i'm going with the 8.0gn load, so far. i'm going to load up 40 rounds @ 8.0 grains and test for accuracy.

murf

 

[ljnowell]

Years ago I was loading 45 Colt with 231 and I had one do something really weird and it was WAY hot! Now...I'm absolutely positive this wasn't a double-charge because those were all individually weighed and no way were they off even a tenth of a grain. The first 4 shot normally then the fifth lit UP with a large muzzle flash and magnum sounding BOOOM!

My buddy shooting in the next lane looked at me and said 'What the hell was that?' so even he noticed the report and flash. Darned if I know for sure, but suspected that the powder had distributed around the case due to static or something and the whole charge went off instantly rather than with a progressive burn. I've read a lot on the subject and it's kind of a Voodo thing and difficult to reproduce enough to say it's a scientific fact...but that made me a believer that very small charges of even fast pistol powder in a big case can cause problems. Been using Unique ever since and try to keep charge density up as much as possible. Good luck and I hope you don't have problems with the 231 experiment!

Have you played with Trail-Boss? That looks like it would fill the case all the way to the top if you wanted and would likely have very small variables if the velocity was suitable to your needs. Next time I load up a batch of Colt I'm going to give it a try and see how it does.

I would look elsewhere for what caused your occurrence. It certainly wasn't flashover causing detonation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[murf]

accuracy test

took ten shots to get some concentration, i guess.

this looks like a good load, but the barrel up shots are not good. back to the loading bench.

murf

 

[Dave P]

I played the powder position game years ago in 3006. Forgot the details there were velocity differences when using loads that did not fill the case.

 

[murf]

shot ten more, all w/barrel up. those outliers from before must be my fault. the up barrel shots are good in this target.

wlp primers are a bit worse than the cci300s. cci300 it is for this load.

the really bad shooting is off-hand. that's my story and i'm stickin toit.

i guess, from now on, if i really want to bear down and do some fine shootin, i'll dropp the barrel down and shake before each shot. otherwise, i think, any difference between barrel up and barrel down is a little bit of vertical dispersion.

murf

 

[murf]

apparently, i can't add. the difference in the down/up average velocity is 70 fps, not 35. so, i'm going with 8.5 grains of unique for this load. i'll just have to live with the increase in velocity. and, oh darn, i'll have to check this one out for accuracy, too.

murf

 

[Walkalong]

Some of the best powder forward numbers I have gotten in .45 Colt have been with AA #2 and True Blue. Shoot good too. (Just 7 yard targets, but they should shoot well at 25 as well.) It's all moot if you tip the barrel up every time, and for informal target shooting that's easy enough.

AA #2 & Ranier 250 Gr TrFP

True Blue & Cast 265 Gr SWC

 

[Reeferman]

A freind of mine was having issues similiar to you with his 45 colt and tried Tightgroup. That's what he uses for his cowboy shooting now and said he has no more issues.

 

[murf]

walkalong,

will either of those powders get me up to 900 fps?

murf

 

[brutus51]

Unique has always been my go to powder for 45 Colt.
8.8 gr. under a 255gr. swc yields 950 fps from my 4" 625 Smith and is very accurate. 8.0 gr gives up 780 fps and is very comfortable to shoot.
Due to the powder shortage I began using Universal clays and it since has replaced Unique reason being, it meters much better and I get similar results with less powder.
255gr swc. 7.6 gr Universal 800fps. Same bullet with 8gr. gives 890fps.
Unique is a great powder but I think some of your variations may be attributed to it's poor metering qualities.

 

[murf]

brutus51,

i weigh every charge on a beam scale. thx for the heads up on universal.

murf