Power Loads For The .40 S&W

[FireInTheHole]

I finally got to the range and chronoed some loads I've been working on today. Here's the data:

All loads were made using once fired WWB .40 brass fired from my G22, Winchester Small Pistol Primers and were all individually weighed.

Some the the load data listed here is interpolated and/or not yet published. Compressed loads should be used with caution.

Note: These were fired from a standard 4.5" G22 barrel.

10.5gr 800x 135gr Nosler 1.130" OAL["MAX LOAD"]:
1360
1392
1362
1390
1352
1390
1399
1350
1393
1446
Average: 1383fps
Average Deviation: 22fps

11.0gr 800x 135gr Nosler[compressed]
1508
1435
Error
1471
1362
1438
1437
1376
1396
1441
Average: 1429fps
AD: 34fps

12gr LongShot 135gr Nosler 1.130" OAL[MAX LOAD]
1466
1457
1471
1484
1459
1449
1523
1526
1529
1458
Average: 1482fps or 658ft-lbs
AD: 27fps

Work Up(no published data)
8.0gr VV 3N37 1.130" OAL
1172
1181
1161
1145
Error
Average: 1165fps

8.5gr VV 3N37
1210
1164
1230
1203
1237
Average: 1209fps

9.0gr VV 3N37
1282
1276
1280
1245
1276
Average: 1272fps

Note: 9.5gr could quite possibly be within safe parameters...

200gr XTP 6.7gr 800x 1.135" OAL
976
987
1000
990
962
983
974
985
972
999
Average: 983fps

200gr XTP 7.0gr 800x[MAX LOAD]
996
1015
1020
1004
1025
1000
984
1027
1015
994
Average: 1008fps or 451ft-lbs

200gr XTP 6gr LongShot 1.135" OAL[MAX LOAD]
966
926
926
930
Error
939
926
926
973
967
Average: 942fps

For comparison I also tested 5 rounds of 155gr factory loaded gold dots through my G22:
1209
1198
1201
1214
1213
Average: 1207fps or 501ft-lbs

Recoil of the 1500fps 135gr load is intense and they are VERY loud. Impressive flash as well. The 800x 135gr loads have incredible flash... and alot of unburnt powder. Further compression (11.5-12gr) might be possible, but I am not that brave.(or one might say, stupid)

Questions, comments, concerns?
-FITH

EDIT: I believe my next tests will be with power pistol and I will increase the 3N37 charge by .1gr until 9.5gr is reached. I may pick up some 135gr rainiers and to try to determine to what extent the velocities will diverge for plated vs JHP. (I'm thinking 11.5gr will be MAX for LS... we shall see)

The muzzle flash with the 800x was much more pronounced than LS. The compressed load spewed out burning flakes which I am certain would be quite spectacular at night. I might lower the 800x load to 9.5-10gr and use a mag primer to see if I can clean up some of the unburnt powder. Performance may be enhanced.

Anybody wishing to run these types of loads through a standard glock or other light pistol might want to consider a spring upgrade. I'm running a 22# now to save my 2nd generation frame from the battering.

 

[HSMITH]

FITH, well done sir. Valuable and easily readable data. Thanks much.

I have been shooting the 12. grains of Longshot under the 135 Noslers in my G22 and KNEW they were stout, but you quantified it for me as I have not chronographed them. I did not notice a lot of flash though, not nearly what I get with starting loads of Power Pistol..... The bang is definately intense, much like a hot 357 magnum in pitch and amplitude to me. Pressure signs on the case are lower than any factory ammo I have tried too, amazing performance and quite a powder. Clean, meters well, fairly low flash, you have to love it. Gonna buy a 4 pounder if that tells you what I think of Longshot.

 

[Black Snowman]

Wow, quite interesting. I might have to give LongShot a try if I don't feel comfortable with my #107 loads I'll eventually be developing. Thanks for sharing all the hard work.

 

[Clark]

Hot loads?

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

In my feed ramp welded Glock 22 40sw I have shot:
12 gr LONGSHOT, 200 gr, case failure
9 gr 3N37, 200 gr case full
11.5 gr Blue Dot, 200 gr, case full
13.5 gr Power Pistol, 200 gr primer fell out
15.5 gr 800X, 200 gr, intense recoil

 

[wingman]

All I can say is good luck and use eye protection.

 

[Clark]

I've got so much data on so many calibers, powders, and bullets that end with something like: "primer fell out, extractor groove expanded .004", that I am going to do some expeiments making military like primer crimping. I will start out with two sets of safety glasses on while crimping. I was in an experiment in 1963 when a guy got hit with a primer. That made a nasty wound.

 

[FireInTheHole]

Perhaps I should have named this thread "Safe Power Loads For The .40 S&W", eh Clark?

I'm too young to give up use of my right and or my eyesight for this hobby.

 

[Publicola]

Hey, y'all are grown ups & can do whatever you want, but 1500 fps with a 135 grainer from a glock w/ a 4.5" barrel?????

first of all the hottest loads I have seen for a 135 grainer is a little over 1300 fps. Upping the velocity 200 fps cannot still be within safe pressure limits.

second, a glock with a standard barrel??? there simply isn't enough chamber support to do that kind of hot rodding safely.

I have a Taurus with a 5" barrel & I damn sure wouldn't try to push a 135 grainer to 1500 fps.

Personally I've settled on Blue Dot & Unique for my .40 I've heard Blue Dot can be a little inconsistent but so far so good. The Unique seems alright as well, but haven't shot as much of it as the Blue Dot. & I've also settled on 165 or 135 grainers. In the summer I like the 135 grain Sierra JHP's & the winter means either 165 grain Golden Sabers or Speer TMJ's (for bear country).

But y'all are certainly much braver than I am. Every time I think about trying to push my .40 like y'all do I start thinking it'd be easier & much much safer to just go with a 10mm.

End of lecture. Y'all be careful.

Incidentally, I started reloading solely because I couldn't find any decent, full power FMJ loads for the .40 S&W. For biped defense of course hollowpoints are more effective, but the .40 S&W is the biggest pistol cartridge I have & wanted it to be useful as a backpacking/hunting back up gun. I could be wrong but I'm thinking that a 165 grain FMJ moving along at 1150 fps is much better than nothing. Any of y'all been experimenting with FMJ loads that don't exceed 1200 fps?

 

[WESHOOT2]

OH YEAH?

I've been working on a safe load that runs the 200g Hornady FMJ over 1200fps.

Not quite there............


"...slowly I turned...step by step, inch by inch..."

 

[Publicola]

200 grainers at 1200 fps out of a .40 S&W? That's what cor-bon pushes - in 10mm!

Like I said, y'all are much braver than I'll ever be.

Just out of curiousity, what kind of pistol are you riski - er, trying to work up this 10, er, .40 S&W load in?

 

[wingman]

safe load that runs the 200g Hornady FMJ over 1200fps.

Please kids don't try this at home.

 

[HSMITH]

My Nosler 135's at 1500 FPS are running LOWER pressures than Winchester White Box in the 165 FMJ or the 180 JHP, lower than UMC 180 FMJ's, lower than S&B 180 FMJ, lower than ANY factory loaded ammo I have tried. I KNOW this, I am not guessing. I have used the EXACT same cases for my loads after mapping the dimensions of the factory rounds before and after firing. I then map my loads before and after. My loads show less case expansion in EVERY single case and every measurement. My handloads are also much less prone to setback than factory ammo. Bottom line here is my 40 loads are safer than what you buy, even my "hotrod" loads.

Let's not assume since it wasn't our idea that the other guy is wrong or unsafe. There are some guys on here that know what they are doing, do it safely, and get performance that is very respectable. They are willing to do the testing and work, and through doing so have learned a LOT more about the subject than a loadbook commando ever will.

Iam not picking on anyone in particular here, I just get a little miffed that every reloading thread has someone pipe up and tell others how they are on the edge of blowing an arm and both ears off without knowing or asking what the circumstances of the load workup were. To speak without knowledge is to profess ones' own ignorance.

 

[Clark]

What is safe depends on what is unknown.
Some things about overloading are unknown to some and known to others.
Those, who can't imagine there is someone who knows more than they do, are often quick to judge someone else's hot loads as unsafe [fear and ignorance working together].

Someone with the knowledge of what it takes to blow up a gun should write a book.
I guess Ackley and Elmer Keith did that.
Maybe someone should write another book.
But what if those quick to call something unsafe don't read books?
We may have to start ignoring some comments.

--
A society that teaches evolution as fact will breed a generation of atheists that will destroy the society. It is Darwinian.

 

[Publicola]

I hate to be a wet blanket, but measuring case expansion is not a sure indicator of pressure. Not even muzzle velocity is. The only way to be sure is to use a strain gauge & those are few & far between.

But I'm willing to listen. Here are the factors that led me to believe these particular loads are not within safe pressure limits:

Specifically the 135 grain load at 1500 fps is about 200 fps over the published max velocity for the hottest recipes I've seen. Hell, it's the same velocity as the hottest 10mm load I've seen for that bullet weight.

The hottest recipe I can find for the .40 S&W lists a 135 grain projectile moving along at 1350 fps from a 4" barrel. The list the chamber pressure as 33,600 psi. The SAAMI max pressure is 35,000 psi. That is 1,400 psi below max, but unless I'm mistaken you'll exceed that before you get to 1400 fps with that particular recipe.

The pistol mentioned was a Glock with a standard barrel. Now perhaps personal prejudice enters this a little as I'm no Glock fan, but the fact remains that Glocks have unsupported chambers. This makes any load near max risky in them, unless you don't mind case ruptures.

In short I'm going on what was mentioned. Higher velocity than the max loads I have seen for the .40 being sent through a barrel with an unsupported chamber. I don't accept that case measurements, estimated recoil, etc... are accurate indicators of chamber pressure.

But like I said I am willing to listen so if anyone wishes to tell me how these loads are actually safe (especially in a Glock with the factory barrel) despite the points I mentioned, or if anyone has taken an actual pressure reading with these loads that demonstrates they are under 35,000 psi, then I'll gladly join the party.

 

[HSMITH]

Hodgdon Longshot. Look up the data. 135 at 1500 all day every day at safe pressures. You won't find it in a factory loading becuase recoil is sharp, blast is sharp and they simply are beyond the comfort level of most shooters. We are talking 675 lb/ft of energy here, they are sharp.

Case expansion IS a good indicator of pressure. What it does not give us is a value. We assume since the factories all have the pressure measuring equipment and all follow SAAMI standards that the ammunition we buy from them is standard pressure or less. We can measure cases and get hard data on case expansion in that particular case at standard or lower pressures. When my reloads in the exact same cases cause less case expansion it is reasonable to assume that peak pressures are lower than factory pressures were. Unless you have some reason to think that Winchester and Remington and the others are providing unsafe ammunition how you not reasonably assume that loads that cause less case expansion are operating at a lower peak pressure?

 

[Publicola]

You are correct. Longshot does list a 1480 fps load as being within safe pressures. Might have to give that a try myself. How does Longshot burn? Is it clean or on the dirty side?

However, measuring cases, inspecting fired primers, etc... is not a reliable enough indicator of high pressure. A number of factors are at work with chamber pressure & at times a case will not show those signs you look for of higher than safe pressure. Other times it will show those signs when you are under the maximum pressure. Factors such as the age & quality of the brass, the dimensions of the chamber, the sizing process & how it works the case, the burn rate & pressure peak of that particular powder, etc... all can give false positive & negative readings, especially when compared to factory ammo where you don't know the powder or charge weight. More or less the only way to be sure is to use a pressure gauge of some sort. But barring turning your pistol into a pressure barrel, most people assume if they stay at or under max loads they'll be okay. & for the most part this works out. But to assume that case measuring is an absolute method of determining your within safe pressure limits is not a good idea.

But that aside there's still the issue of using an unsupported barrel.

"WARNING: This data is intended for use in
firearms with barrels which fully support the
cartridge in the chamber. Use of this data in
firearms which do not fully support the cartridge
may result in bulged cases, ruptured cases, case
head separation, or other condition which may
result in damage to the firearm and/or result in
injury or death of the shooter and/or bystanders."

That's straight from the Hodgdon manual. You'll find similar warnings in most other manuals that list recipes for the .40 S&W. So I still contend that in an unsupported chamber, such as a stock Glock has, that load is not the safet in the world. Then again I don't trust Glocks with anything over a mid power factory load & then only with new brass. Like I said I'm a bit biased against them, but with reason.

ut I do appreciate the info on Longshot. Like I said I might have to look into that one myself.

 

[wingman]

In all honesty I cannot see the reason to push a "tool" to the edge, because
of useful life, safety factor, doesn't make sense. Want a bigger noise/bang, buy
a bigger caliber.:banghead:

 

[HSMITH]

Longshot meters very well and burns VERY clean. You have never loaded big medicine and had cleanliness anywhere near what Longshot will give you.

Your bias against Glocks is duly noted and henceforth ignored. I have no problem with them and actually like them quite a bit.

Wingman, this is no more "the edge" than most factory ammo and certainly less than some factory ammo.

 

[Clark]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

..measuring case expansion is not a sure indicator of pressure. Not even muzzle velocity is. The only way to be sure is to use a strain gauge & those are few & far between.

This reminds me of "Plato's Allegory of the Cave".

Is the case expanding the reality or is the pressure the reality?
And which is an indirect indicator that adds error?

If the real limit is the barrel bursting*, I would think the pressure is, but if the limit is the primer falling out in a supported barrel, then I would think the case expansion is the reality.


* Of my testing of 15 semi auto pistols I have incrementally overloaded to see what happens, only one, the CZ52 has the pistol fail before the brass.

--
A society that teaches evolution as fact will breed a generation of atheists that will destroy the society. It is Darwinian.

 

[FireInTheHole]

Wow my little thread has grown.

Ok here is the deal:

LongShot does not meter perfectly. It is much better than 800x but still nowhere near as well as ball powder.

I burns pretty clean. (<dirty than unique)

Glock barrels:
I think that nearly new once fired brass is sturdy enough for a few max pressure loadings. This is a controversal topic I dont want to discuss in this thread... (go to glocktalk.com and read all about it)

Out of time now. Night folks.
-FITH

 

[Zero]

Consider yourself Lucky

That they didn't try and run you out of town for posting loads that are not at the low end of the spectrum.

 

[WESHOOT2]

UNLIMITED SUPPLY OF 40's

My personal test platform is an EAA Witness 'Standard' using a fit-by-me factory match barrel.
It is as supported as one can get in a 'factory' edition.
It is accurate in the extreme.
It ain't broke yet.

I do NOT recommend casual experimentation in the "Screw SAAMI' realm, as danger lurks everywhere, just waiting for the LEAST little excuse to blow yer gasket; know what I mean?

BTW, as I can choose who will shoot my 200g/1200fps load, I am NOT worried about disaster striking them.
Oh, and I'm still not there............... :banghead:

 

[FireInTheHole]

FOLLOWING IS LOAD DATA THAT HAS NOT BE PRESSURE TESTED FOR SAFETY! THESE LOADS DID NOT BLOW UP MY GUN BUT MIGHT YOURS. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK!

Following is a series of tests I ran today using mag primers and reduced 135gr 800x loads (10.5gr is max book) with standard primers purely for comparison. Same conditions as my original .40 tests:

8.0gr 800x Winchester Small Magnum Primer(WSMP) 1.130" OAL:
1141fps
1161fps
1131fps
1199fps
1131fps
Average: 1153fps

8.5gr 800x WSMP 1.130" OAL:
1164
error
1232
1196
1198
Avg: 1198fps

9.0gr 800x WSMP 1.130" OAL:
1272
1311
1266
1274
error
Avg: 1281fps

9.0gr 800x winchester standard pistol (WSP), Control Load #1 1.130" OAL:
1255
1258
error
1253
1271
Avg: 1259fps

9.5 800x WSMP 1.130" OAL:
1318
1381
1335
1372
1389
Avg: 1359fps

9.5gr 800x WSP Control Load #2 1.130" OAL
1241
1272
1254
1231
1271
Avg: 1254fps

Observations: Readings taken at dusk conditions were not ideal as I didnt bring my light kit ... significantly less unburnt powder exited barrel on magnum loads. Flash was also lessened(although less than I had hoped for). Surprising results when I moving from 9 to 9.5 grains with the WSP.(decrease!) I may have to make another batch for a second test.

Overall, the greatest velocity increase occured at 9.5gr... makes me wonder how much faster a mag primer would push a 10.5gr 800x(book max...24kpsi) loading. Adding a mag primer and reducing the max by 1.0gr I have nearly reproduced what I would assume 10gr would produce... I wont be testing any larger charges however. (any brave[r] souls out there?)

Mag primers DO increase pressures along with velocites. Any powder faster than 800x/longshot/bluedot might be exceedingly dangerous when used in a small capacity case with a mag primer however.

 

[Lennyjoe]

Oh boy, I have alot to learn about reloading.

What am I getting myself into?

 

[FireInTheHole]

A great hobby. It only gets better as you gain more experience.

I began loading extremely conservative target loads 4 years ago for 9mm. (hehe I was underage so it was the only way I could shoot)

I dont claim to be an expert, but once I finish school I may actually look for work in the powder/ammunition industry. (ah.... I can dream right? )