Practice ammo brass: .357, .38 spl, or .38 spl Short?

[Shivahasagun]

I've been hand loading new .357 mag brass for my new Colt King Cobra 3 inch using 158 gr XTP's.

I'm running low on .38 spl practice ammo and need to decide what brass and lead bullets to load and reload.

I'm weighing the pros and cons of each choice.

1. Load .357 mag loads with jacketed bullets and practice .38 pressure loads with lead bullets in .357 brass. (I'd buy more .357 brass)

2. Reload my .38 spl. Remington +P brass with lead bullets for practice. (Probably 158 gr)

3. Buy new .38 spl. Short brass and load & reload it with lead bullets for practice. (135-158 gr)

The .38 spl Short attracts me because it ejects so easily, takes up less space in a bag, and is easier to tell from .357 when separating cases. (Range bucket and / or case tumbler)

I'm not sure how well .38 spl. Short works from speed loaders. I'm waiting on my 5-Star brand speed loaders.

Any advice?

 

[AJC1]

If I was buying brass I would never buy 38 anything because even a lightly split 357 case can be cut down shorter but you can't make them longer

 

[Single action shooter]

dont have to deal with lead ring from 38spl getting in the way of the 357 going flush in the cylinder either...that is always annoying

 

[westernrover]

What are you practicing?

 

[bcook4321]

Nice to not have to sort the 38 brass from the 357 plus all the other reasons mentioned. I just load everything in the 357. Light lead wadcutters up to full load jacketed.

 

[Bazoo]

The advantage of 38 special is free or nearly free cases. Couple that with better efficiency of powder, and for light loads, it's a good choice. If you're only making a box or two, it don't matter. If you plan on shooting 5k rounds this season and want to keep a bunch loaded, Well that dictates using 38 brass because of the low cost of acquiring brass.

Use an oversize bore brush in a drill to clean chambers.

I have a couple thousand 38 cases, and I went a long time using just a couple hundred mag cases. Had a friend give me bout a thousand mag cases a while back that I'm working on.

 

[FROGO207]

Also depends on if you want identical acting load for practice. Using a same weight but cheaper bullet in 357 brass at same speed with same point of impact type of pactice or shooting a round at a target type of accuracy. The latter with 38 SPL brass and lead SWC is about the cheapest load you can build. But is not a 357 in any way. Cheap brass and cheap bullets provide a lot of trigger time and will make you a better shot but is that really practice.

 

[reddog81]

I have a few boxes of 357 that I reload and shoot but for the most part reload and shoot .38 Special. It’s much easier and cheaper to find .38 Special cases. Unless you’re shooting .357 strength load the 38 special brass will work just fine.

 

[Shivahasagun]

What are you practicing?

Just defensive shooting.

About 1k-2k rds a year is what I expect.

 

[Shivahasagun]

Also depends on if you want identical acting load for practice. Using a same weight but cheaper bullet in 357 brass at same speed with same point of impact type of pactice or shooting a round at a target type of accuracy. The latter with 38 SPL brass and lead SWC is about the cheapest load you can build. But is not a 357 in any way. Cheap brass and cheap bullets provide a lot of trigger time and will make you a better shot but is that really practice.

Would like same point of impact of course but for longevity of the gun and my hands / wrists will run lower-recoil ammo for practice and fewer defense loads.

 

[Shivahasagun]

dont have to deal with lead ring from 38spl getting in the way of the 357 going flush in the cylinder either...that is always annoying

I dont mind this I scrub chambers with a brush and clean the gun after every session.

 

[Shivahasagun]

Do I need to worry about trimming .357 cases?

Because if I do I definitely would rather use shorter cases and skip trimming.

 

[Shivahasagun]

If I was buying brass I would never buy 38 anything because even a lightly split 357 case can be cut down shorter but you can't make them longer

Hm.

I've yet to trim or cut cases.

 

[westernrover]

Just defensive shooting.

About 1k-2k rds a year is what I expect.

Practice how you carry then. You don't need to use exactly the same bullet, but you ought to use something with similar recoil and similar trajectory at least. Don't practice with cast lead 38 Special if you're carrying JHP 357 Magnum (and vice versa). If you practice reloading (recharging the cylinder), I would also practice with the same case length you carry so your ejection and speedloader or clips work the same way.

The only reason to trim revolver cases is for consistency in the rolled crimp. Because you also need to trim the case mouths square, it has to be done very well. For a couple thousand rounds a year, it may be easier to buy new brass and fire it a consistent number of times. As long as you don't mix brass of various providence, the length will probably be consistent enough -- or you can just get out your calipers and sort it.

 

[lordpaxman]

I reload both .38 special and .357 mag for my 686. I’ve not thought about adding .38 special short to the mix - is that the .38 short colt BTW?
I would estimate I load 5 times more .38 special than .357. The more you separate brass, the more you’ll be able to spot the difference between the case lengths. Adding a third one will be like trying to separate .380, 9mm and 38 super.
I don’t have an issue with the dreaded “lead ring” in the cylinders. I use Adco cloth on a drill and it’s gone in a second, but at last check that cloth is discontinued. Still, I have no problem firing .38’s in .357. Good luck.

 

[AJC1]

Hm.

I've yet to trim or cut cases.

I trim 357 for two reasons.
1. I'm trying to get a solid consistency in my crimps.
2. I perform a lot of testing, and it's one more variable that's easy to control. Probably just habitually done from rifle competion.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I've been hand loading new .357 mag brass for my new Colt King Cobra 3 inch using 158 gr XTP's.

I'm running low on .38 spl practice ammo and need to decide what brass and lead bullets to load and reload.

I'm weighing the pros and cons of each choice.

1. Load .357 mag loads with jacketed bullets and practice .38 pressure loads with lead bullets in .357 brass. (I'd buy more .357 brass)

2. Reload my .38 spl. Remington +P brass with lead bullets for practice. (Probably 158 gr)

3. Buy new .38 spl. Short brass and load & reload it with lead bullets for practice. (135-158 gr)

The .38 spl Short attracts me because it ejects so easily, takes up less space in a bag, and is easier to tell from .357 when separating cases. (Range bucket and / or case tumbler)

I'm not sure how well .38 spl. Short works from speed loaders. I'm waiting on my 5-Star brand speed loaders.

Any advice?

".38 Special Short" is not a SAAMI-spec'd cartridge so, unless you are wildcatting your own loads or pulling data from periodicals, you can use .38 Long Colt brass and loading data safely in a .357 Magnum.

Sorry to be pedantical but I'm still getting used to this whole "1984" NewSpeak thing of calling old cartridges by new names.

There is no SAAMI spec' for ".38 Special Short" - take a look at the list of all .35 caliber revolver and pistol cartridges from SAAMI Z299.3 – 2015.

In a different publication, "SAAMI Generally Accepted Firearms and Ammunition Interchangeability, 10-8-2021," you'll find references to 38LC and 38SC but, nothing about ".38 Special Short." SAAMI specifies, "(Firearms Chambered In) 357 Magnum (May Generally Safely Shoot): 38 Special, 38 Short Colt, and 38 Long Colt"

So really, this just a new, different way of head-stamping .38 LC - in place of trimmed .38 Spl brass - for competition shooters who want a cartridge that ejects more quickly/easily. From what I gather, most of those big-time competitors use pressure-testing equipment, club-tested data, published data from magazines, etc. to wildcat .38's for competition where even a snubby/short-stroke will still eject a full cylinder or full moon clip. If you're not going to be competing, it's kind of a waste to use ".38 Special Short" brass - IMO. Just use .38Spl, cut-down .357Mag, or .38LC brass if you want a short-stroke ejecting, lower-pressure target-only cartridge for your .357Mag revolvers.

Oh, and be careful about lead/carbon rings in your cylinders but mostly that's just an annoyance, not a danger.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I reload both .38 special and .357 mag for my 686. I’ve not thought about adding .38 special short to the mix - is that the .38 short colt BTW?
I would estimate I load 5 times more .38 special than .357. The more you separate brass, the more you’ll be able to spot the difference between the case lengths. Adding a third one will be like trying to separate .380, 9mm and 38 super.
I don’t have an issue with the dreaded “lead ring” in the cylinders. I use Adco cloth on a drill and it’s gone in a second, but at last check that cloth is discontinued. Still, I have no problem firing .38’s in .357. Good luck.

@mcb has loading data and WAY more info about .38LC for IDPA shooting, I think. It's not for defensive use, IIRC, just ringing plates or punching paper or something like that. I think @Shivahasagun is confusing competitive shooting loads with concealed carry loads, maybe? It's not hard to get confused since the "power factor" games are supposed to simulate real-world defensive uses.

 

[mcb]

38 Special Short is a less often used term (Magtech likes it for some reason) and more often the cartridge is called 38 Short Colt by most manufactures and current users, though its a modern version not the original blackpowder heeled in bullet version. The modern 38 Short Colt (38 Special Short) is simply a 38/357 case cut down to .765 inches long similar to the original 38 Short Colt but utilizing modern .357 diameter bullets. Its true, its not a SAAMI cartridge as the original form of the cartridge was obsolete before SAAMI existed and the modern version is not yet popular enough to be made into a SAAMI cartridge.

38 Short Colt is popular in USPSA and ICORE because of its short length allows it to ejects and reloads very fast especially on moonclips. There are lots of load data on forum like Brian Enos's forum and similar that are USPSA and/or ICORE focused. Modern 38 Short Colt has nearly the same case volume and length as 9x19mm and a lot of guys use starting data for 9mm as a starting point when working up their 38 Short Colt competition load. That said REMEMBER most of them are using 38 Short Colt in 357 Magnum revolvers and are pushing pressures well above even 38 Special +P to meet required Power Factors of the sports.

Hodgdon's online reloading database has entries for two light weight bullets for modern 38 Short Colt and they are super conservatives for those using 38 Short Colt in cap and ball cartridge conversions.

38 Short Colt will work with most 38/357 speedloaders but with the cartridge being so short if your using a push to release speedloader (like a Safariland Comp III) you can get into a situation were the speedloader will release the rounds before the nose of the bullets are in the chamber causing issues. Obviously this is more of a problem with short blunt bullets than longer pointier bullets. Some people have taken to shortening the body and release button on their speedloader to make them run more reliably with 38 Short Colt.

The lead ring in the cylinder thing. I have shot tons of short cartridge 38 Special and 38 Short Colt in 357 Magnum chambers and I never experience an issue even after 1200+ rounds without cleaning. I can't imaging how much ammo and/or how bad that ammo must be to have that build up enough crud to cause an issue.

-rambling

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

38 Special Short is a less often used term (Magtech likes it for some reason) and more often the cartridge is called 38 Short Colt by most manufactures and current users, though its a modern version not the original blackpowder heeled in bullet version. The modern 38 Short Colt (38 Special Short) is simply a 38/357 case cut down to .765 inches long similar to the original 38 Short Colt but utilizing modern .357 diameter bullets. Its true, its not a SAAMI cartridge as the original form of the cartridge was obsolete before SAAMI existed and the modern version is not yet popular enough to be made into a SAAMI cartridge.
...
The lead ring in the cylinder thing. I have shot tons of short cartridge 38 Special and 38 Short Colt in 357 Magnum chambers and I never experience an issue even after 1200+ rounds without cleaning. I can't imaging how much ammo and/or how bad that ammo must be to have that build up enough crud to cause an issue.

Thanks for correcting my bad info. I knew you'd have the skinny low-down.

There are lots of load data on forum like Brian Enos's forum and similar that are USPSA and/or ICORE focused. Modern 38 Short Colt has nearly the same case volume and length as 9x19mm and a lot of guys use starting data for 9mm as a starting point when working up their 38 Short Colt competition load. That said REMEMBER most of them are using 38 Short Colt in 357 Magnum revolvers and are pushing pressures well above even 38 Special +P to meet required Power Factors of the sports.

So, is the .38SC (+P+ ???) really just a competition round or is it a legit SD round now using USPSA-style published data?

About the rings - I know plenty of folks who think the carbon/lead ring thing is a super-bad grenade in progress but really it's just an annoyance to people who don't like discoloration in their cylinders. It's like the whole dirty vs. clean powder thing and the clean-your-gun-if-you-look-at-it! vs. why-bother-cleaning-smokeless? thing. Much ado about nothing. I get that if I'm using waxed lead bullets and a light load the rings in some of my .357's will cause sticky extraction but, it's not horrible. At worst, I give the ejector a smack of the palm.

 

[mcb]

So, is the .38SC (+P+ ???) really just a competition round or is it a legit SD round now using USPSA-style published data?

Most USPSA/ICORE shooter are loading round nose bullets because they work well for fast reloads that are critical to the sport. Round nose bullets are not know for having good terminal effects on living targets. If you where to substitute in a quality HP bullet I would use them for self defense but its just as easy to use quality 38 Special or 357 Magnum self defense ammo rather than work up a self defense specific 38 Short Colt load in most cases. At least for my own use, 38 Short Colt is only used for competition and I usually carry a 38 Special +P in my CCW most of the time though in the woods I have been carrying 455 Webley.

 

[mdi]

Good discussion on 38 Short Colt in 357 Magnum guns. https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?48589-A-more-efficient-38!-Step-inside-for-some-edjumacation!

 

[cfullgraf]

I load and shoot ammunition with 357 Magnum cases in my 357 Magnum guns and save my 38 Special cases for my 38 Special guns. But not everyone has that luxury.

Light 357 Magnum loads I usually taper crimp, I shoot alot of plated bullets that do not have a crimp groove in them. Heavy 357 Magnum loads get trimmed and roll crimped.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

3. Buy new .38 spl. Short brass and load & reload it with lead bullets for practice. (135-158 gr)

The .38 spl Short attracts me because it ejects so easily, takes up less space in a bag, and is easier to tell from .357 when separating cases. (Range bucket and / or case tumbler)

Have you found place that actually has any .38 Short, Long or Special brass in stock?

 

[AJC1]

I load and shoot ammunition with 357 Magnum cases in my 357 Magnum guns and save my 38 Special cases for my 38 Special guns. But not everyone has that luxury.

Light 357 Magnum loads I usually taper crimp, I shoot alot of plated bullets that do not have a crimp groove in them. Heavy 357 Magnum loads get trimmed and roll crimped.

There can be only one power, full power - highlander.