Practice to Switch From Striker to 1911

[luzyfuerza]

I'm considering switching my EDC from an XD45 compact to a Wilson EDC X9. The XD45, of course, is a striker-type gun with no thumb safety, while the EDC X9 has 1911-style controls.

I've started a thread to compare the hardware here:

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-change-xd45-compact-to-wilson-edc-x9.902466/

In this thread, I'm interested in your thoughts about the practice and training aspects of changing from a striker to a 1911 for EDC.

I've never been a fan of the "carry rotation" ethos. For the last 20 years I've focused my training and practice primarily on striker guns. Working toward unconscious competence with this platform. I like the XD45 and shoot it well.

With this being said, a couple of years ago, I thought that I'd take a handgun class with a 1911 to improve my skills with this platform. The safety and trigger really messed with the automatic actions that I'd developed with the XD45. In the middle of the course, I decided that I didn't want to mess up the skills I'd worked so hard to gain, and I finished the course with the comfortable old XD.

To switch to the EDC X9, I would have to change:

1) my grip (both thumbs low to thumbs high),
2) my presentation to add manipulation of the safety,
3) my trigger press (longer, somewhat mushy striker stroke to the crisper single action), and
4) my malfunction clearance habits to include manipulation of the safety.

For those of you who were first competent with a striker and switched to a 1911, how long did it take you to become completely, automatically competent with a 1911-style gun for EDC?

 

[Jeff White]

I went from 1911 (what I learned to shoot with) to revolver (S&W Model 65 first issued police weapon) to slide mounted safety DA/SA (S&W 5906 second issued police weapon) to striker fired (Glock 21 third issued police weapon) back to 1911 after my department authorized them. For me the biggest learning curve was presentation. We did a lot of training when we switched from 5906s to Glock 21s. I had a sore spot on my trigger finger from the safety level in the trigger of the Glock after that 8 hour transition course. It wasn't a big deal for me to hit the safety on the 1911 when I gripped the weapon probably because I had started with a 1911 years before. I always hit the safety when I grip the pistol and if I'm not going to shoot immediately it went back on when the sights were on target. Of course a peace officer points his weapon at people much more than a private citizen ever would. I always hit the safety when I gripped the weapon so I wouldn't have to think about it once the sights were on target if I was drawing the weapon to shoot immediately rather then to make an arrest. I practiced my draw and presentation a good 500 times before I started carrying the 1911 on duty.

 

[luzyfuerza]

@Jeff White , When you carried the G21, did you use a thumb-high grip? Did you find yourself sometimes sweeping the (non-existent) Glock thumb safety?

 

[Jeff White]

I used a thumb high grip on the Glock. I didn't try to sweep the non-existent safety on the Glock after the 8 hour transition course we did. The switch from revolvers to the 5906s went better for most of the officers because the first round being double action was almost the same as the Model 65 and 66s we were issued. With the 1911 some instructors teach hitting the safety on the grip and some teach hitting the safety as the weapon clears the holster.

 

[JTQ]

I ride the 1911 thumb safety. My thumb spends more time on the thumb safety than my index finger spends on the trigger.

I haven't done a striker to 1911 transition, but finding the 1911 thumb safety, or rather starting on the thumb safety makes a lot of difference. I've read a lot of posts on this and other forums about "a thumb safety will get you killed on the street", but I'm convinced those saying that don't start with their grip on the thumb safety and don't ride the thumb safety.

In this GunTalkTV video, Gunsite's Ed Head shows the draw stroke, and at about the :40 mark, shows when he gets on the 1911 safety.



Doug Koenig shows his grip with a 1911.



This is another video, while a little over-dramatized, that may be helpful to the new 1911 user.

 

[FL-NC]

I think a good investment for this endeavor would be to purchase one of those Colt "gold cup" 22 pistols.

 

[LocoGringo]

I've got to switch back and forth between a 1911/2011 and a Glock 17. I shoot the 2011 for competition and the Glock for work. I originally started with a XDm for competition but switched to the 2011 for the improvement in trigger and a little more capacity. The transition took me making 1 mistake and not engaging the safety when I had to leave the pistol behind to transition to another firearm. For a 1911/2011, you must engage the safety; for the XDm, you just drop it. I had the RO come up to me after I was finished shooting the stage and point out that I had forgotten to engage the safety after dropping the weapon. I felt pretty embarrassed and resolved to not do that again. I haven't had a problem since then. I guess subconsciously I've developed a "switch" in my head that when I'm shooting the 1911/2011 I ride the safety with my thumb and when I'm shooting the Glock, I nest my thumbs forward. They've both become automatic now.

I'm just curious...why do you feel the need to switch?

To practice the transition, you don't need to fire a single round. Dry fire is perfect for this learning.

 

[luzyfuerza]

I'm just curious...why do you feel the need to switch?

I'm looking for a better trigger (slightly mushy striker vs a crisp 1911), a little less recoil/faster splits (9mm vs 45 ACP), and higher capacity (15+1 vs 10+1). They're not big differences, but even a slow adopter like me gets to thinking about the grass on the other side of the fence occasionally.

You've successfully trained to use both platforms effectively. How would you compare your times and accuracy between the G17 and your 1911/2011? Was the 1911/2011 change (from the XDm) worthwhile?


BTW, the suggestions to use dry practice and a 1911 trainer in .22 lr to do the transition are right on target.

 

[LocoGringo]

You've successfully trained to use both platforms effectively. How would you compare your times and accuracy between the G17 and your 1911/2011? Was the 1911/2011 change (from the XDm) worthwhile?

As for accuracy, the fundamentals are the same for any pistol you pick up. Get a steady, firm grip, focus on the front sight, squeeze the trigger rearward, follow through to call the shot, release the trigger for a reset...rinse and repeat. Fundamentals are the same; it's just that some of the particulars are different like the grip. I will say that my 2011 shows flaws or lapses in my fundamentals very obviously by rewarding me with misses. The gun is accurate and I know it. If I miss, it's because I did something wrong.

As for my times, I don't think I've sped up or slowed down. I have confidence in both. I'm no super shooter, but I'm competent with both and above average. I will say I enjoy shooting my 1911/2011 much more than a striker fired gun.

For me it was worthwhile. I love a good trigger and shooting my 1911/2011. I like shooting striker fired pistols. I also enjoy feeling confident in my shooting ability with any pistol I pick up. It's good to have solid fundamentals. Good luck with your transition should you choose to do so.

 

[Blue Jays]

I have often contemplated how rapidly does "muscle memory" engage when swapping between a classic hammer-fired semiautomatic, to striker-fired semiautomatic, to esoteric guns like a HK P7 squeezecocker, and then to a revolver. Does the brain have to analyze or does it find ways to automagically adjust?

 

[Jeff White]

In my experience you can’t develop unconscious competence with multiple platforms and then just switch between then and expect your mind to switch back and forth without some initial relearning.

My truck has the gear shift on the column. I mostly drive my truck. My wife’s car has the gear shift on the console. I am unconsciously competent driving both vehicles with the steering wheel, gas brake etc. Yet when I get in my wife’s car, adjust the seat, mirrors etc and get ready to back out of the carport I catch myself reaching for the gear shift lever that isn’t there on the column. My wife likes to tease me about it.

Another example that I read about was an upgrade to the CH53 helicopter the Marines use put the button that released the hook on a sling load where the landing light switch was on earlier models and this resulted in several sling loads being dropped from high altitudes. I don’t remember if they changed the switch locations back to correct the problem.

The examples of my truck v wife’s car and the switch placement in the CH53 are everyday activities for me and for the pilots. We carry our guns much more then we use them. It takes a lot of training and repetitive practice to become unconsciously competent with one handgun, if you were to put the time in to become unconsciously competent with multiple handguns I think that one would make the same mistake I make reaching for the fear shift lever that isn’t there. You would have to consciously remind yourself which gun was in your holster.

That’s why I was never a fan of carrying different guns on different days and I always selected an off duty gun that was the same action and controls as my duty gun. There may be people out there (probably are) who can seamlessly transition from one platform to another without losing any competency. I’m not one of them and I think that’s a pretty rare quality.

In my opinion a switch between striker fired and hammer fired isn’t as hard as switching between a manual safety lever and no safety or a frame mounted safety and a slide mounted safety. Those require completely different motions to operate.

 

[LocoGringo]

In my opinion a switch between striker fired and hammer fired isn’t as hard as switching between a manual safety lever and no safety or a frame mounted safety and a slide mounted safety. Those require completely different motions to operate.

I disagree on the draw stroke between a 1911 and a striker fired pistol. For my draw stroke, I've developed a technique where I swipe my strong side thumb down the side of the slide toward the grip to either 1) rest my thumb on the safety of a 1911 or 2) nestle the thumb with the weak side thumb since there is no safety to stop my thumb on the striker fired pistol, depending on which gun I have in the holster. My draw stroke is the same for both pistols and either I rest my thumb on the safety (1911) or I don't (striker fired pistol). Either way, the safety doesn't interfere with speed or operation and gets deactivated reliably.

The holster I use at work for the Glock 17 helps because the retention device is deactivated by the thumb. As I deactivate the retention with the thumb, it almost naturally swipes down the side of the slide to achieve a proper grip, so I don't have to worry about hitting a safety. For my competition holster with the 2011, there is no retention like on the work holster, but I still need to swipe down the slide to catch the safety. It ends up being the same motion to draw.

If the safety were on the slide like a Beretta 92, that would be different, although with a little practice, the same motion could work. If you do the same motion each time you draw and you cover your bases with deactivating a safety if it's there, then there shouldn't be a problem.

 

[fastbolt]

I have often contemplated how rapidly does "muscle memory" engage when swapping between a classic hammer-fired semiautomatic, to striker-fired semiautomatic, to esoteric guns like a HK P7 squeezecocker, and then to a revolver. Does the brain have to analyze or does it find ways to automagically adjust?

That may rather depend on how well you've invested the effort to successfully hard-wire the "muscle memory" for each design (and their holsters).

How many proper draw-strokes have been done over time, including both EMPTY weapon/mag dry-fire draws and presentation,s as well as on a hot live-fire range? The former head instructor at my agency, under whom I trained many years as a younger man, once told me that things got a lot smoother after 10,000 good draw repetitions were under my belt with different guns. Okay then, considering I carried and used revolvers, 1911's, Traditional DA pistols and plastic striker firing pin pistols ... that gave me something to keep working on during all my range time.

I also looked at it as being similar to my early years as a martial arts practitioner. If you wanted to improve at different techniques, you worked at it. All of them, if you hoped to acquire some semblance of competency with all of them.

I usually look at changing from one handgun to another as a 'pattern recognition' thing, meaning if I change a handgun design I take a moment to refresh my hand's recognition and allow my long-ingrained skillset to kick in and recognize (remember) the particular gun from all the previous years of range practice. It helps that I sweep my primary hand's thumb forward to acquire the draw grasp regardless of whether or not the holster - or the pistol - has a thumb safety. Admittedly, when we transitioned to the swivel hoods on the last duty weapon holster I was issued (post retirement, but remaining on as a reserve), that took some dedicated time and practice to adjust the thumb's new movement.

 

[fastbolt]

Perhaps this might be a handy spot to insert a recollection of when Level III security holsters were still a debated topic in police work.

We allowed our guys and gals to choose to buy and carry L3 security holsters if they could demonstrate successful use of them on the qual range, meaning staying within all of the time constraints we usually imposed for the holsters we issued. Over time I saw the recommendation of performing 200 hundred proper draws from those holsters for familiarization rise to 500 successful familiarization draws. For a reason.

It was dismaying that seldom would we see someone who had spent the money to buy one be able to draw as quickly as others using the standard duty holsters. (Or as quick as they'd been with their former issued holster.) Sure, they could still stay within the upper limit of the times allowed, but they weren't as quick to draw and get those first shots fired as most others using regular holsters. Every once in a while we'd see someone come aboard who had been carrying a L3 holster at their former agency, and wanted to continue using one with us. When it came to range work it would be obvious that they'd previously invested the time and practice to become skilled in using one, since they were as quick - or quicker - using their L3 holster as others using the standard holsters. Nice.

 

[fastbolt]

Oh yeah, even as a longtime 1911 owner and shooter, I've been carrying one as a retirement weapons less often than in previous years.

When I do occasionally grab one for retirement CCW, however, I take a few moments before loading it to re-familiarize myself with it and its holster, to give me the time for my 'pattern recognition' software to boot up. I also still take a couple of my 1911's to retirement qual/LEOSA and practice ranges.

 

[fastbolt]

I guess I ought to add one other thought about developing a proper drawstroke grip that works with various handguns ... from my perspective ...

That has to do with being able to consistently engage the grip safety of a 1911. With or without a 'memory bump' on it. As an instructor I've seen my fair share of folks adding a 1911 to their off-duty collections without (apparently) realizing the critical importance of having a solid grip technique that engages the backstrap. I remember one strapping young fellow, with large hands, who was frustrated because he wasn't engaging and depressing the grip safety on his neat new Kimber. The 1911 doesn't tolerate either sloppy grip acquisition, or a grip that inconsistently engages the grip safety.

Perhaps in my case this is a benefit from having spent may years shooting both hard-recoiling Magnum revolvers and 1911's as a younger shooter, neither of which are tolerant of sloppy or inconsistent grip techniques.

Something to think about for the average shooter, and especially the novice 1911 owner/shooter.

 

[shafter]

I have often contemplated how rapidly does "muscle memory" engage when swapping between a classic hammer-fired semiautomatic, to striker-fired semiautomatic, to esoteric guns like a HK P7 squeezecocker, and then to a revolver. Does the brain have to analyze or does it find ways to automagically adjust?

You're brain defaults to whatever has been wired into it. If you've practiced extensively with a Glock, then switching to a 1911 isn't going to be smooth under pressure. The same goes with where you carry your gun and spare magazines. You'll find yourself being slowed down by reaching in the wrong place for something that isn't there.

 

[fastbolt]

This is a bit like using different hand tools, in the respect that they aren't all identical in how you grasp them, hold them and use them in your hands. Enough proper use, time and experience can help someone acquire the familiarity and proper use of them, though.

Ditto holding and using different sporting gear (baseball bat, golf club, racquets, etc).

 

[TomJ]

There's about a dozen of us who volunteer as armed security for our church, and we train one to two times a month. Recently during one of our timed training drills one of our members who normally shoots a Glock used a 1911 he had just purchased. When the timer went off he drew the 1911, did not disengage the safety and it took him a second or two to realize his mistake when the gun did not fire. As others mention, if you're going to make the change you need to practice disengaging the safety upon drawing it until it becomes an instinctive part of your draw.

 

[luzyfuerza]

I'm really interested in the various points in the presentation that folks here have trained to disengage the thumb safety. I'd only been trained previously on two: 1) during the rotate/count three (Gunsight), and 2) just after the slap/at the beginning of count four (like Koenig).

Others here have trained to disengage the thumb safety on grip/count 1. Some suggest later in count four once the sights are on target.

Personally, the latest step in the presentation that I would ever want to train to disengage the safety would be during rotate/count 3. This is to be able to fire from retention/close contact.

But I had never before considered disengaging on count 1.

 

[herrwalther]

The biggest issue I have when getting back into 1911s from anything else is the trigger. I have been shooting striker fired Walthers for several years now and built a new 1911. My trigger pull suffers as a result. No matter how good striker fired triggers become, I doubt they will ever be as short or crisp as a 1911. Can't go to the range as much as I would like so I am doing dry fire drills with a laser boresight in the barrel and a dummy round.

 

[Jeff White]

But I had never before considered disengaging on count 1.

Shooting from retention was why I trained to disengage the safety on count 1.

 

[Hangingrock]

I've been shooting the 1911 series since 1964 and the striker fired Glocks since generation 3 plus the current S&W MP series. I simply do not have procedural issues in regards to handling and firing the previously mentioned, they each have their SOP (Standard Operating Procedures). Now past my midpoint of my seventh decade if I can handle basic operating of the 1911 series and striker designs so can individual's much younger than I can do the same also.

 

[fastbolt]

Shooting from retention was why I trained to disengage the safety on count 1.

I've heard different reasons for when taking the thumb safety off-safe, but I'd opine that it comes down to the situation and whether or not you're intending to immediately fire.

After all, when would someone have their shotgun or rifle on-safe, versus ready-to-fire? If in ready-to-fire mode, when is it returned to on-safe? And why? The answer to the question is often found to have something to do with situational context, which can include the tactics/needs of the moment.

That said, when we were first devising a familiarization and transition course for some special tactics folks to adopt 1911's, it was decided that a 2000rd (minimum) program would be used before anyone was cleared to carry the 1911. Then, they adopted a monthly shooting regimen to reinforce and maintain the basic manipulative skills needed to safely and effectively run the 1911's.

 

[Jeff White]

I've heard different reasons for when taking the thumb safety off-safe, but I'd opine that it comes down to the situation and whether or not you're intending to immediately fire.

What I did, was safety off on count one and back on at count four if I wasn't going to shoot. A peace officer draws his weapon without the intent to immediately fire it much more often than a private citizen (which probably should be never). My reasoning was; it didn't seem sound to have a different presentations for different situations. If it came out of the holster it was ready to fire and if the situation didn't require me to fire immediately the safety went back on.