PRB/Minie size?

[Shotgun Willy]

A while back, I bought a Zouave, and have been trying to work up a good load for it. I've got some questions, I'm hoping someone can help me with.
When loading a .576 ball (supposed to be .575, but measures out at .576), I'm having to smack the living-crap out of the ball starter, to get it started down the barrel. Then when it gets about 2 - 3 inches farther in, I have to smack it again-but not so hard. After that, it's pretty easy to shove it on down in, using my dowel rod. Is it normal to have to hit it that hard? I've tried it patched and un-patched, and both ways leave my hand sore after just a few rounds. It seems pretty obvious to me, that I need some smaller balls, but how small? Should I drop it down to .565, and just adjust the patch thickness? Should I switch over to Minies, and what size-compared to the size of RB-if so? I don't want to buy a mold, until I can be sure I'm getting the right one, but I don't want to buy a whole lot of the wrong size balls for testing, either.

The other question is, does anyone know where I can buy a new rear sight? I ask about the rear sight, because I don't want to mess up the one that's on it, trying to adjust it. At 120 yards, and with 50 - 70 gr. Pyrodex RS, it's hitting 18 in. high. To get the POI down near the point-of-aim, I had to reduce the charge to 35 gr.. That's not going to have a lot of knockdown power, and I'm wanting to do a little hunting with this gun. I wish I could be more precise about how high it was hitting, but by this point, my hand was hurting too much from loading, to keep playing with it.

The rifle's stamped .58 cal, DART, Made in Italy, and PR (the mystery manufacturer).
Thanks

 

[mykeal]

0.576 in a .58?

You need to measure the lands and grooves and find out what the real bore dimensions are in order to really get the right answer. However, I'd use a .570 ball and .015 patch to start, then go to .010, .018 or .020 depending on how that works.

To answer your question, no, what you are having to do is not 'normal'.

I'm not familiar with the rear sight setup on your gun so I can't help with that. Is it a dovetail or is it screwed on? Some pictures would help immensely.

 

[rusty from italy]

I'm Italian but I don't know PR manufacturer!
The zouave was the first reproduction musket down in the '60 and was made from a lot of different manufacturer, Zoli, Bernardelli, Euroarms-armi san paolo, armisport-chiappa, and may be other!

For miniè balls i use a lyman 575213 with modified base to have more thickness around the cavity, for sizing you can make a sizer with a universal decapper dies from Lee, cutted in the top and lightly milled in the internal, and a piston made with a lathe to insert in your reloading press!
My two zouave are different each other, The oldest is .577 the newest with match barrel (7 rifles) is .575!

To get a new sight you can try to mail armisport-chiappa http://www.armisport.com/ita/mire.asp
May be they sent one across the ocean
ciao
Rusty

 

[Mike OTDP]

First, use a Minie bullet. Rifle-muskets are set up for those, not patch round balls.

Second, mike the bore. Then take yourself over to the N-SSA bulletin board. They have most of the expertise on the rifle-musket and can recommend a bullet design.

 

[ccyooper]

I use a .575 rb and a lubed .018 patch in my old Lyman plains rifle. It's loads nicely enough. If I were you I'd drop down a ball size to .570..Of course you can't go wrong by slugging your barrel.

 

[arcticap]

You can find Dart on this page of registered Italian gunsmiths:

Riva Esterina - Dart Brescia 1971

http://www.earmi.it/armi/database/armieri.htm

The name of the company was "Riva Esterina" which translates to Esterina River and their guns were stamped DART. It was located in Brescia, Italy and it was registered as a gunsmithing outfit in 1971. They made some C&B revolvers marked DART too and several of their guns have surfaced.
The high shooting sight is common with the miltary Zoave rifles. Just buy a much higher front sight and file it down while sighting it in with different types of projectiles to protect from filing too much away. Track of the Wolf or Dixie Gun Works should have replacement sights that will work. Just buy one that's high enough.
I use a mallet when starting and ramming anything tight along with a piece of thick dowel from the hardware store. Sometimes a 2nd extra long starter is better to use after starting with a short starter even if the load needs to be malleted 1/2 way down the barrel before ramming it home.

 

[sharps59]

you need a minnie .002 under bore dia.
you do not want to pound rounds down the barrel. even pressure all the way down if you are pounding you are distorting the round and it will not shoot for s*$#
If you have a minnie start it down the barrel leaveing enough out so you can get pliers on it turn it 1/2 turn pull it out and mic it. get a sizer .002 under what you mic.
something between 42-48 gr. of 3fffg will work the best out to 100yrds. if you use swiss start w/ 38 of 3fffg. work up in 2 gr inc. until you hit a good group or it starts to open up. then work form your tighest group til you hit the sweet spot.
for a sight go to S & S fire arms get a blank L leaf {skirmisher sight] you can drill a peep or notch it as needed.

 

[Shotgun Willy]

I found a picture of someone elses rear sight, over on TFL.

There was some white paint on the rear sight, when I got it (gone now), that was someone elses answer to it shooting high. They probably just marked it where POI and POA were the same.
S&S does have new ones in their catalog, for pretty reasonable, so I'll either get one of those to grind on, or just get me some white paint.

 

[bonza]

I size my Minies to .579" for my Euroarms Zouave-repro. The Minie needs to be sized so as to be a slip-fit at the muzzle.....about .002" under BORE size (land to land NOT groove to groove). If I was shooting roundball, I'd be trying a .570" with a .015" patch.
With the Zouave's rear sight, I filed down a couple of the sight leaves to get me were I wanted to be, pretty easy to do. As mentioned above, replacement leaves are readilly available, so you can always return it to stock-standard if needed. By the way, in case you aren't aware, all the Zouave rear sights I've seen can be adjusted for windage by loosening the screw that holds it to the barrel. It is located beneath the longest sight leaf, & they usually have a couple of dimples in the head rather than a slot. I just ground a stubby screwdriver to make a a couple of pins that locate in the dimples. When the screw is loosened the sight will pivot left & right.

 

[Shotgun Willy]

Thanks Bonza, my Dad's gonna measure the barrel for me Sat. evening. Then I'll have a better idea, what I'm looking at. I didn't know about the windage adjustment, under the bottom leaf. I knew about the screw, but not the adjustability. I figured I'd have to adjust the front sight, since it's dovetailed in. Since it's not moving around, I'd rather not take a chance of loosening it up, by screwing around with it.
I probably will go ahead and order a new rear sight for it, to adjust on.
Thanks again, I'll let you know what I find out.

 

[Shotgun Willy]

Ok, just finished measuring the bore. It's 3 land and 3 grooves, which made measuring it interesting. I ended up measuring from land to groove (.580) and subtracting the thickness difference, between the land and groove (.014). It looks to me, like I have a bore dia. of .566. Does my methodology check?

 

[Hellgate]

Here's something I googled. It may or may not help:

(from http://www.public.asu.edu/~roblewis/SMLE/IIID2a11a5.html )


Bores With Odd Grooves

(from AR, Q&A, Aug80, p64)

Q: What is the proper method for measuring the bore and groove diameters of barrels having odd numbers of lands and grooves? With even numbers of lands and grooves, it's easy to simply slug the barrel and mike it, but with Smith & Wesson revolvers or British Enfields with five-groove rifling, this doesn't work.

A: First you must determine the bore diameter using ball gauges of the largest size which will enter the bore, adjusting the expansion carefully, then miking it. An alternative method is to take a soft lead slug or bullet only somewhat over bore size, press it into the muzzle, then turn it with the fingers to cut off the groove extrusions. Measure the short cylindrical section turned off to bore diameter. Next, take a soft lead slug or bullet, and upset it to somewhat over groove diameter. With the bore lightly lubricated, drive it through the barrel with a solid brass rod and mallet. Measure its diameter over a land-to-groove cross section, and subtract the bore diameter measurement to get the depth of rifling remaining. Double this figure and add it to the bore diameter to get the groove diameter of the barrel. -- R.F.D.

 

[bonza]

Your measurement (.566") is way too small. I'd expect your true bore size to be in the vicinity of .578" to .582".

 

[Shotgun Willy]

Your measurement (.566") is way too small. I'd expect your true bore size to be in the vicinity of .578" to .582".

I was expecting the same, so I measured the balls to see how far over .575 they were. When we measured a couple of them, they were .576 and .575. Having to pound the crap out of the ball starter, like I do, makes the .566 more believeable.

The gun came with a goody box containing a powder flask, patch lube, some .54 cal. balls, and a few flints. Until recently, I'd believed the box to belong with some other rifle. Now I'm wondering if the previous owner hadn't been loadinig .54 cal. balls, and patching them really thick. Unfortunately, It's too late to check on this theory, because they've already been melted down and recast as .454s.

 

[arcticap]

If your bore size actually is .566 then that would still leave you with the choice of .550 and .562 cast round balls from Track of the Wolf.

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(aj...atId=2&subId=25&styleId=58&PageSize=25&Page=3

 

[Shotgun Willy]

Thanks, that .562 might be just the right size. I'm happy to see they have Lee molds, for .562, because I like being able to cast for whatever I'm shooting. I'll probably order some of the balls, first, just to make sure they're right.

 

[Shotgun Willy]

Update

I ordered a caliper on evilbay, and measured the gun some more. It's a cheapie digital, but it measures within .001 of my dads more expensive one.
Long story short, I fired three balls, using 8 gr. of RS, into a barrel of water. Measuring-to the best of my feeble abilities-shows me that the bore is .566 - .567, depending on which caliper you trust.
Next step's to order some .562 balls, and try them out, or would I be better off with .550 with heavier patching?

 

[arcticap]

I'm not positive which balls would be more preferable for you to use. At least the smaller ones would be safer and will work.
And I have no idea how deep the rifling grooves are.
For instance, I have one Numrich .45 that takes a .433 ball and an .018 patch.
It doesn't really like anything tighter.
The larger balls sound like they may be a little too tight when loading.
And I think that larger bores usually do better with heavier patching because they hold more lube, they're more durable and are more compressable than a thinner patch would be. The smaller balls would be easier to load especially after the bore gets fouled and wouldn't require as much swabbing between shots.
Only trying out both sizes would reveal which one your gun likes better and would be more desirable for you to load. But personally I would favor using smaller .550 balls with heavier patching.

 

[Shotgun Willy]

I got some .562s in from TOTW, the other day, but I haven't had time to test 'em out. I very well might end up going on down to the .550 balls, but I couldn't see spending the money on both sizes. I figure I've got a 50/50 chance of getting it right.

Of course the way my luck's been running.:banghead:

 

[Macgille]

Take your balls and melt 'em down and recast for minie balls. The rifling on the Zouave will not stabilize a round ball very well. The rifle was designed to use conical projectiles. I cast my minies and then stand them in a cake pan and pour lube in the pan to above the grooves. then I use a tube to cut the minies out of the solidified lube made of 50% crisco and 50% beeswax.

When loading, pour the powder down and place a lubed minie in the muzzle and push it in with your fingers. then ram it to the bottom. No patch, the minie is designed to expand when fired and will pick up the rifling. Mine (a Navy Arms replica circa 1967) will put 5 balls in 5" at 200 yards. Assuming the gods are kind that day.