Price of Smith and Wesson's (first Post too)

[gmh1013]

I was looking for a Model 36 for when I get CWP, Just waiting for it to be mailed....But when I looked at the Price I was in shock 668.00.. was the dealer price.
I have a Rossi snubbie, Bersa 380 and just bought a SIG Sp 2022 which is way to big for CWP to carry.
I love the looks of the Model 36 with the wood grips but have a hard time forking out 650 bucks for one. I know lots of people knock the rossi as a
cheap gun and would not bet their life on one.
Question is a S and W 36 really that much better than a Rossi/Taurus 85 or
even a Ruger Sp101 at 500.00 is better price point, but I just dont like the looks of the Ruger and they never have fit in my hand well.
Im trying to justify spending that much on a model 36 to myself and of course my wife when she sees the debit card charge.

 

[scottishclaymore]

Opinions are like dirty socks; everybody has them, and most of them stink.

Mine is that if the snub you have now is comfortable and shoots well and you can run it, you ought to stick with it.

Most of Taurus is really just a Brazilian-made S&W. While they don't have perhaps as much soul as a Model 36 (and few things do) functionally I have never been able to tell much of a difference.

 

[rainbowbob]

Welcome to THR, gmh1013!

As the proud owner and daily carrier of a classic M 36 - I would agree that here isn't anything quite like it. Perhaps it doesn't matter to some - but esthetics, feel, history do matter to me.

Am I correct in assuming the dealer price you quoted is for a new one? I recomend that you look in the classifieds here and elsewhere (e.g., www.thefiringline.com) until you find a nice used one ($400 +/-?). Also check the gun shops and pawn shops in your neighborhood.

Once you have your classic in hand, you will want to buy a Tyler T-Grip (www.t-grips.com) to complete the package. The T-grip will give you the right look, and more importantly, the right feel for handling your little jewel.

I also recomend the Mika Pocket Holster ($20) found at (www.frontiernet.net) for convenient concealed carry.

Good luck!

 

[35Rem]

637 ? its a stainless/aluminum airweight. I like mine.
Better yet the 642 (no hammer)
Prices around $450, or less.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

Surely that is a MSRP and not the "street" price.

 

[18DAI]

S&W can want as much for those new revolvers as they wish, and it appears they ARE wishing Wanting and getting are two different things. Find a nice used pre lock 36.

Better gun for less money, IMO.

 

[Hawk]

While I tend to agree that a nice used 36 would be a great find, S&W appears to be doing a great deal more than simply wishing.

The recently released AFMER2007 is continuing to show a steady increase in S&W's revolver sales, albeit not as strong a growth as their autoloader sales.

Revolvers
'07: 196,255
'06: 185,078
'05: 158,146
'04: 146,089

As nice as the pre-21st century product may be, it lacks something the new product has: the ability to annoy Sarah Brady and irritate Tom Diaz by increasing the existing handgun pool.

I tend to prefer the older product but I'm glad to see that the buying public doesn't mirror that attitude - I'd like to see them stay in the revolver business and continue to wrap the Brady Campaign and VPC around the axle.

Question is a S and W 36 really that much better than a Rossi/Taurus 85

I don't know but the market generally seems to voting in S&W's favor. Can't tell for certain as the AFMER numbers don't tell us about import quantities.

 

[raveneap]

Picked up my SW 637, NIB a little over a year ago; $380 out the door. Airweight, nice gun but had to have Smith work on the cylinder release twice; rough action and once wouldn't release the cylinder.

 

[pogo2]

S&W model 36 price

I just bought an unfired, 20 year old model 36 for $450 three weeks ago. The price quoted by the poster sounds very high. If you look for used guns in excellent condition, and are patient, you can find some that are better than new S&Ws, cost less, and without the internal lock.

 

[BigBlock]

NO, current Smith and Wessons are NOT worth the premium they demand. New production guns are highly inferior to old Smiths, they have an unreliable and ugly lock built into the gun, and the parts are made from MIM, which is pressed metal powder...IE the particle board of metal. They also feature two peice barrels.

They didn't used to be such a POS, if you can find an older one it might be worth a high price, but new ones are crap. Period. They might be good for around half the asking price.

 

[barneyrw]

You can pick up used S&W model 36's or model 60's for half that price online or at pawn shops or gun stores. Two months ago I sold a model 36 in like new condition for $290 and last year I picked up a model 60 for $325 at a pawn shop and as posted previously the airweights go new for around $450 at gun shops.

 

[Hawk]

NO, current Smith and Wessons are NOT worth the premium they demand.

Well, since I've already got AFMER2007 in front of me, I might as well toss out another couple of numbers:

Revolvers manufactured in 2007
Sturm Ruger: 96,598 (including the 2,314 made in Prescott).

Short of S&W's numbers by roughly 100,000 units. And that with S&W having no presence whatsoever in single actions.

At the risk of seeming to channel the spirit of Adam Smith, a thing is "worth" what the market will bear and the market is screaming that S&W isn't overpriced.

It's been my observation that the general gun buying public doesn't have much relation to what one would observe on internet firearms fora.

I rather like Rugers and am particularly impressed by their elimination of screws on the double action product. Neither do I suffer with a prejudice against investment casting. But they're not a screaming bargain - they're worth their price as are S&Ws worth their price and Rossi and Taurus and Korth and Freedom Arms and Manurhin and etc.

Market forces at work - it's a wonderful thing. They also influence used product pricing and I expect that will prove very interesting in the near future.

 

[MrBorland]

Worth? If you like the 36, if it feels better and shoots better for you than anything else, buying one's worth it, IMO. As others noted, if the price is too steep, check out the used market. There's a nice clean used 36 and holster currently on Joesalter.com for $445.

http://www.joesalter.com/detail.php?f_qryitem=8849

 

[Guillermo]

NO, current Smith and Wessons are NOT worth the premium they demand. New production guns are highly inferior to old Smiths, they have an unreliable and ugly lock built into the gun, and the parts are made from MIM, which is pressed metal powder...IE the particle board of metal. They also feature two peice barrels.

They didn't used to be such a POS, if you can find an older one it might be worth a high price, but new ones are crap. Period. They might be good for around half the asking price.

I would only disagree about the older models "maybe" being worth the money and change that word to "are".

I would not buy a new Smith any more than a new Rossi or Taurus.

Not saying that they don't work, but an older Smith or Colt are delightful guns, the likes of which will never be seen again.

(Plus I don't buy anything from Smith since they still do the poorly designed, dangerous, ugly lock)

 

[Hawk]

I would only disagree about the older models "maybe" being worth the money and change that word to "are".

I would not buy a new Smith any more than a new Rossi or Taurus.

Not saying that they don't work, but an older Smith or Colt are delightful guns, the likes of which will never be seen again.

(Plus I don't buy anything from Smith since they still do the poorly designed, dangerous, ugly lock)

Irony check: on another forum I held that S&W had lost a number of their customers to the collector market and that money changing hands over previously manufactured goods would impact their bottom line negatively. It drew this response:

Do you believe that the "They don't make 'em like they used to" mantra is restricted to the gun industry? The key point is that the vast majority of potential buyers don't give a rat's arse about the repugnancies of the cognoscenti, whose cash injections into the collectible segment cannot but boost the overall value of the brand. For example, yonder Joe Blow out to buy his first revolver is not going to delve into the S&W minutiae of pinned vs. crush fit barrels, recessed vs. straight cylinder chambers, forged vs. MIM hammers, or pre-lock vs. integral lock frames. He will either buy into the S&W brand or take his money elsewhere. And in the former instance, his decision will be largely shaped by a high resale value of the brand in question.

...

S&W made 185078 revolvers in 2006. This website allegedly reaches over 281K U.S. monthly people. If it were a bellwether of customer dissatisfaction with S&W, I would have expected the accursed lock to have vanished by now. My take on our role is different. As Tuco told the corpse of his would-be assassin, "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk." There's them that talk, there's them that shoot, and never the twain shall meet.

Online fora favor tire kickers. I have enjoyed countless hours discussing guns with like-minded online personae. But I never expect online debaters to be representative of paying customers. Taking S&W's design and manufacture standards as a measure of its esteem for our cavils, neither do they.

I was also pelted with an academic back-up to the assertion that "I'll never buy a new S&W" actually served to increase or maintain the pricing on the new product:
https://lirias.kuleuven.be/bitstream/123456789/119012/1/TEM1993-1_73-85p.pdf

Clearly, the man is right about Joe Blow given ATF's sales figures. They don't care - they're buying locked MIM product just fine. I'm no economist but the assertion that S&W can maintain high pricing levels because of rather than in spite of those they've tee'ed off seems an amusing little irony.

And the prices on those pre-lock S&Ws have cleared the runway, wheels and flaps are up and the climb has started.

 

[18DAI]

No argument that people are buying new S&W's. There is a thread over on the S&W forum, where the OP spoke with a S&W sales rep at his local shop. The S&W sales rep reportedly told him that new revolvers sell fine, and thats because "guys that don't know any better don't care...". That strikes me as an honest answer.

Everyone I have encountered locally, at the shop or the range, who purchased one of those new S&W revolvers fits that description.

Are you sitting down Hawk? I agree with you, S&W could care less about it's longtime customers who are not, and have not, been buying their products. Works for me, I consider them to have gone out of business in 2000.

I have purchased 4 revolvers this year (so far!) and S&W has not gotten one thin dime from me. What a ridiculous business model to not care about selling as much of your product, to as many people as possible, who would buy it. Isn't that what GM did?

There are folks who would buy some S&W's despite MIM and modern construction methods, were it not for the inclusion of the lock. I say many, you say a few traditionalists. Well, lets say it is only 1000 folks. 1000 folks who lets say buy three revolvers a year. 3000 is within the minimum order for a law enforcement agency order. Why not do another run of 3000 revolvers that "traditionalists" would purchase? Keep your employees/machines busy, make a few more dollars.

Now some would say, well to do that S&W will have to charge $1000 for those revolvers. Last time I looked at S&W MSRP's they were charging that, or more, for the crap they are making now.

As to the prices on older real S&W's taking off, that ship sailed four years ago. When is the last time you saw a $200 model 10? How about a $175 police trade in 65 or 66? When I can find a shooter grade model 19 the asking price is $425 or more. Has been this way for several years and continues to get worse.

 

[gmh1013]

What is MIM? I guess Metal Infused ???

 

[Hawk]

Are you sitting down Hawk? I agree with you, S&W could care less about it's longtime customers who are not, and have not, been buying their products.

These things happen. Fact is, I often agree with you. We differ on matter of degree but not basics. I prefer the older stuff but probably don't think all older stuff (especially late 1970's) is always that much better or that new stuff is always that much worse. Some 2009 product is above average for 2009 and some 1978 product is below average for 1978. That can make a specific 2009 look like it's holding its own against a specific 1978 unless the lock is wieghted heavily in the appraisal which is an outlook I can respect if not share.

The idea that the collector market bouyed the new retail market was foreign to me when first hit with it but it seems plausible after given a while to settle in.

The difference between internet forums and the world at large was pounded home when I thought I'd found a used 29 and lost interest when it was flipped over and a lock hole made its appearance - it seemed like everyone in attendence was staring at me like I had 3 heads. "Hunh" says I, they really, really don't care.

I do find it exasperating that we can't specify the absence of a feature in a new product with a 1,700.00 MSRP. I'm told the PC has its own CNC machines, they're already using forged parts and the frames are purportedly made from scratch. Omitting a lock should be as easy as reprogramming one of the beasts.

 

[18DAI]

Agreed. The whole thing is puzzling. Make a feature optional and move more product - no brainer. Re program a machine......in a specialty shop.....how much trouble could that be? Additional expense???

I guess the question becomes, how much more product? I don't know any way to quantify that. All the guys at the local shop would buy the lock free version of the 686+ with 3" barrel, the fellows at the IDPA match all talk about group ordering lock free model 21's, the range rats want lock free K-frame magnums. Officers I know are prohibited from carrying IL J-frames as BUGS, they want more lock free J-frames.

Who knows how the local sample compares nationally. Oh well, enjoyed discussing it with you. TJ

 

[HippieMagic]

What is MIM? I guess Metal Infused ???

Metal Injection Molding... they basically mix metal powder with plastic powder bindings, bind it together, remove the plastic binders with solvents, then heat the metal enough to bind the particles. It isn't as weak as everyone acts like and most of the higher end 1911 manufacturers use MIM parts as well... People just get paranoid over MIM parts... The way I see it if the gun works it works... who cares how it is made...

 

[Old Fuff]

Well here is a case in point:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=124175534

We have a model 629 .44 Magnum Mountain gun, which is a limited-issue “lighter weight” revolver. (5000 were made in 1989) It doesn’t have the despised lock, but I think the hammer and trigger might (or might not) be MIM constructed. The barrel is one-piece construction with older style rifling. It comes with the original case, documents, and possibly a blank warrantee card.

The seller is asking for an opening bit of $600.00, but I have no idea where it will end up.

Let’s say for argument that it sells for $700 or less…

Why do I want to buy a new one?

 

[gmh1013]

Thanks for all the suggestions, I think we have gun show next week and I will look for used Colts or Smith
without the lock

 

[messerist]

I bought a Classics line Model 27 4"bbl last year and recently traded up for a Classic model 40 "lemon squeezer" .38 +P. have I wasted my money? I shoot the Model 27 in local IDPA matches and I carry the Model 40. The 27 has the safety lock but the 40 does not.

 

[Old Fuff]

... have I wasted my money?

It's a matter of opinion, but while I much prefer the older revolvers I don't think you wasted any money.

The Classic Model 40 doesn't have the lock because the hammer is fully enclosed, and it has a grip safety. The problem is that the grip safety originated in 1887 when S&W brought out a new revolver called the "Safety
Hammerless" or "New Departure.” These were either chambered in .38 S&W (not Special) or .32 S&W - both very mild loads. When you shoot that revolver with .38 Special Plus-P loads the grip safety will pound your hand, and that's the reason it was eventually discontinued. S&W presumed that most of the buyers of the new offering would be collectors who wouldn't shoot one much. However if the recoil doesn't bother you you're good to go.

I believe that the older model 27’s were made better, but if the one you have is working to your satisfaction you have nothing to worry about. The proof is in the shooting, and where the bullets hit the target. One can’t argue against success.

Besides, I may get the older guns that you didn’t…

 

[Guillermo]

Besides, I may get the older guns that you didn’t…

Old Fuff is the best