Primer Issue-Different Guns/Different Primers

[PChunter56]

I'm brand new to the forum here, but often visit. My first post is something I have done some research on, but would like potentially some more specific answers. Here is my situation: This issue began with my 500 Smith and Wesson Performance Center revolver and it popped up yesterday when I was shooting my Taurus 454 Casull. I have found that a significant number of rounds (particularly for the 500) are not igniting. At first I thought it was due to the firing pin on my 500 not striking the primer hard enough. Then I shot about 50 rounds of other ammo in the gun with different primers and they all fired properly. The suspect primers were Winchester large rifle primers. Yesterday when I was shooting my Taurus 454 I found that about 1/10 rounds would either not ignite or I would have a squib load. The primers I was using for those rounds were Remington 7 1/2 small rifle primers. I fired about 50 rounds through the gun with ammo I made with Federal small rife primers and they all ignited properly.

What I have read that is the most common issue regarding primers is not seating them deep enough. I am thinking this is not the case since I am not getting consistent misfires across the board with all primers used. One thing in common that both sets of primers that wouldn't ignite have in common is that I kept them in an ammo can in my basement. I do all my reloading in my basement and have kept many primers for years in these ammo cans. So, I don't know if it is just coincidence or more than that. Another thing I should mention is that with some of these rounds they wouldn't fire the first time the firing pin struck the primer but would on the second or third try. It's possible that they weren't being seated deep enough and the firing pin then seated them a little deeper and then they would fire?

As far as other factors go: I have used a wide variety of powders (accurate #9, 4100, 1650, ect)- I'm a fan of western powders. Anyway, since I do a great deal of my hunting with my big bore revolvers I don't want to find myself in a position next deer season where I have a big buck in my sights and the firing pin strikes that primer and it doesn't fire, but the buck hears it and takes off. So, any suggestions which you guys might have will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

 

[Lafitte]

It is commonly believed that Federal primers are softer and will function with a lighter firing pin strike than other brands. I have seen figures on the issue of primer softness that seem to confirm the softness issue. I know shooters who have their guns tuned to the point that they will only fire reliably when using Federal primers. This could be a factor in your situation.
Lafitte

 

[mdi]

Ninety nine percent of primer problems for new reloaders is improper primer seating and can arise with not-so-new reloaders too. Look at a primer's construction. The anvil provides a solid surface for the cup to crush the priming compound. If the anvil is not seated squarely, solidly in the bottom of the primer pocket, misfires will happen. Regardless of method you choose to prime your handloads, make sure that the primers are seated all the way to the bottom of the pocket, and for now ignore "below flush dimensions". Seat the primer completely and give it a bit more "ummph" to make doubly sure the anvil is solid against the pocket bottom (there is no problem with "pre-loading" primers)...

For a particular gun I have to "pre-load" Winchester primers to get 100% reliability (the gun works quite well with CCI, Wolf and Remington and the Winchester primers work quite well in other 9mm pistols). The practice used to be called "sensitizing" primers. Just seat and add a bit more compression...

 

[Stumper]

Both of your guns are chambered in calibers that commonly use rifle primers. Nevertheless that may be part of the issue since rifle primers typically have thicker/harder cups. How are you seating them? The issue you raised about incomplete seating is the single biggest factor in inconsistent ignition. Bottomed in the pocket is essential but actually should include bottomed with a slight amount of pressure to preload the anvil.

After posting I see that mdi beat me to it. :>)

 

[Blue68f100]

Normally if primers are going off on the 2nd attempt is a primer seating issue. The primers are not being seated fully to preload the anvils as required.

Different mfg use different primers cups. This can be used to adj sensitivity. Federal have a long history of being the most sensitive.

 

[PChunter56]

Thanks to all of you. I will make another 20 or so test rounds using the primers that have had issues. I use my Hornady Progressive Press for seating the primers (putting what I would think would be more than enough pressure on the handle of the press to seat them flush). Regardless, I will put some "extra" umph into seating the next batch I make for the 500 and 454 using the primers in question.

 

[rfwobbly]

► I fully agree, partially seated primers are a common novice annoyance that disappear as the user settles in with their new machine. Pulling the hammer back for a second try is a good way to detect partial primer seating.

► However, a few Hornady LNL presses have a slight issue in that the primer pusher may not fully seat the primer every time. Instead the downward movement of the main ram is stopped before the primer pusher is allowed to rise high enough fully push every primer "home".

The fully seated primer should stop the downward movement of the main ram, not the bottom of the shell plate. It is easy to discover if your machine falls into this small group. Cut up a 3/8" square piece of steel can and place that on the anvil of the frame where the primer pusher lands. This will allow the primer pusher to rise approximately 0.010 to 0.012" higher, and result in deeper primer seating.

Hope this helps.

 

[PChunter56]

An additional note, I have been reloading for approximately 3 years, and have only begun to have these problems in the past couple months. I have probably shot somewhere in the neighborhood of 500 rounds that I have produced for my 500 and 454. Only these most recent batches have demonstrated the primer ignition issues.

 

[PChunter56]

► I fully agree, partially seated primers are a common novice annoyance that disappear as the user settles in with their new machine. Pulling the hammer back for a second try is a good way to detect partial primer seating.

► However, a few Hornady LNL presses have a slight issue in that the primer pusher may not fully seat the primer every time. Instead the downward movement of the main ram is stopped before the primer pusher is allowed to rise high enough fully push every primer "home".

The fully seated primer should stop the downward movement of the main ram, not the bottom of the shell plate. It is easy to discover if your machine falls into this small group. Cut up a 3/8" square piece of steel can and place that on the anvil of the frame where the primer pusher lands. This will allow the primer pusher to rise approximately 0.010 to 0.012" higher, and result in deeper primer seating.

Hope this helps.

Just to make sure I am understanding you correctly, I should place a small piece of thin steel between the primer seater and the shell plate in order to increase the height of the primer seater?

 

[rfwobbly]

Just to make sure I am understanding you correctly, I should place a small piece of thin steel between the primer seater and the shell plate in order to increase the height of the primer seater?

Not quite. The primer pusher is being lifted (and pushed up through the shell plate) when it strikes a "landing pad" on the body of the press. I suggest placing some type of metal shim on that "landing pad" so that the primer push pin is elevated higher when the main ram comes down during primer seating. The effect of that pin being elevated higher is that the primer is seated deeper.


Typically in such cases, the primer push pin only needs to rise another ~0.001 to 0.006" to get 100% perfect primer seating, That's why the seating issue is random. Most primers will seat all the way without any extra help. It's (maybe) only 5 out of 100 that need to be pushed ever so slightly more. What the shim does is allow every primer to be pushed just a little bit extra. For the primers that don't need it, it doesn't hurt. But the extra push is exerted on 100% of the primers, and the 5 that need it then get it.

Now you got to be careful with your materials. If you use an aluminum can for shim material, then the problem could slowly reappear in a year as the aluminum gets smashed thinner.

Hope this helps.

 

[Zendude]

You mentioned squib loads with the 454. Did the primer ignite but the powder did not, causing the bullet to stick in the barrel?

 

[Blue68f100]

A easier way to check if the primer seating punch is not going all the way is to just push forward on the handle, running the ram all the way down. No brass in the shell plate so you can see how much it comes up. Now look at the punch. Mine extends almost 1/8" above the base.

 

[jmorris]

Normally if primers are going off on the 2nd attempt is a primer seating issue.

Without inspection of some of your reloads, this would be the best indicator it is the seating of the primers vs something wrong with the primers themselves.

 

[Slamfire]

The suspect primers were Winchester large rifle primers.

An additional note, I have been reloading for approximately 3 years, and have only begun to have these problems in the past couple months. I have probably shot somewhere in the neighborhood of 500 rounds that I have produced for my 500 and 454. Only these most recent batches have demonstrated the primer ignition issues.

You are using rifle primers in revolvers. Revolver ignition systems are not as robust as rifle mechanisms, therefore less energy is available in the ignition system to be applied to the primer. Rifle primers take more energy, on the average, to ignite, than pistol primers. I assume that large rifle primers take more energy than small rifle primers, though I have not verified that.

Primers sensitivity also varies by lot, did you happen to change primer lots?

It is possible the primers are not fully seated, or that you changed primer lots, and ended up with less sensitive rifle primers in a marginal ignition system.

 

[mdi]

FWIW; I was just checking, for my info., in my Lyman 49th and the 454 Casull is spec'ed with small rifle magnum primers and the 500 S&W is listed with large pistol magnum primers. I don't think this will have much to do with the OP's questions, just wanted to know for my curiosity. I wonder is the OP tried any factory ammo?

 

[PChunter56]

Just wanted to say thanks to all who posted on this issue. The problem was the seating of the primers. I reset all the primers and used exceptional force and haven't had one primer not ignite yet (knock on wood).

 

[Walkalong]

It's hard to hurt a primer seating them "hard". It's easy to not seat on all the way seating them "easy" with "feel".

Now you have an idea of how much force to use with those primers in that application. Glad it worked out to be an easy fix.

 

[PChunter56]

FWIW; I was just checking, for my info., in my Lyman 49th and the 454 Casull is spec'ed with small rifle magnum primers and the 500 S&W is listed with large pistol magnum primers. I don't think this will have much to do with the OP's questions, just wanted to know for my curiosity. I wonder is the OP tried any factory ammo?

I usually use the western powders reloading guide since I prefer their powders (really like 4100 for my big bore revolvers). If I'm not mistaken they have used large rifle primers in their data for the 500 S & W and small rife primers for the 454 Casull, so that is what I used. I always try to get Federal but sometimes my local guy is out and then I have either gone with Winchester or Remington rifle primers. In the future when he is out I will try CCI.