Primers just falling out !?!?!?

[saands]

I got a call from my brother-in-law (who I just taught how to reload last week) and he told me that some of his mil-surp 7.62x51 brass won't hold onto the CCI 200 primers that he has. Thay are apparently REALLY loose and just fall out with their own weight. I had him measure them (thinking that they were small rifle primers in a LR box) but they measured .211" in diameter, so that sounds OK. The headstamp on the brass is "FC 96" ... they were resized, but he already tossed the old primers so I couldn't have him measure them. Also, these 7.62x51 cases did not have the primer pockets crimped, and YES, they WERE boxer primed

I've been reloading for a couple of decades, and I've never seen anything like this

Any ideas on what might be causing this?

TIA,

Saands

 

[Sunray]

He has to be using the wrong primer. Mind you, with mil-surp brass, depending on what make, he could have swaged the primer pockets too much. Tell him to load some factory brass and see what happens. But I'd almost bet, he's using the wrong primers. Large rifle only for 7.62 NATO.

 

[uglymofo]

So far as I can tell, there are only 3 possibilities for that headstamp, "FC 96".

Federal Cartridge Corp., Anoka, MN 55303 (also produced in Germany and Austria)
Departmento de la Industrial Militar, Mexico City, Mexico
Prvi Partizan, Titovo, Uzice 31000, Yugoslavia

If it's Federal brass (milsurp or commercial) I wouldn't trust it. The rep is that Fed casings are so soft that the primer pockets expand beyond usefulness after 1-2 firings.

CCI 200 is supposed to be Large Rifle. I'll agree in a roundabout way with the previous diagnosis; if your brother-in-law hasn't swapped out the primers, the fault is in the brass, and the conclusion must be the crimp has been removed, and it was either reamed or swaged too much. If there isn't any crimp, it's probably Federal.

 

[saands]

The rep is that Fed casings are so soft that the primer pockets expand beyond usefulness after 1-2 firings.

Since the primers measured .211" and they just fall out, I'm having a hard time imagining that they are "Small Rifle Primers" (which should measure .175") Are there other possibilities for the "wrong primer" ... even Large Pistol primers should be the right diameter (even though they would seat a few mils too deeply) ... In any case, I've asked him to try the same primers in some 30-06 or 30-30 brass that he has, so that should clear up the "right primer" question. I hadn't heard of such soft brass. As far as I can tell, this was mil-surp brass without a crimp, so it should have only been fired once and wasn't swaged, but maybe that's all it took.

Interesting that you mentioned:
Departmento de la Industrial Militar, Mexico City, Mexico
as this ammo may have been obtained in Mexico ...

Thanks,

Saands

 

[uglymofo]

Of 4 rifle-related forums I visit, the majority of the experienced contributors on 3 of them unanimously agree that Federal cases are 'fire and forget' cases because of the expanding primer pocket issue (among others).

I've found that they'll last several reloadings, but I'm pretty easy on the charges. In the end, though, even for me, the primer pocket goes first before incipient case separation or neck-hardening become evident.

 

[g56]

Enlarged primer pockets are a classic over pressure sign.

If he, or anyone else, has previously reloaded those cases the load was way too hot! If those cases are only once fired military, either someone has done a poor job of removing the crimp, or something is wrong with the cases and they should be disposed of. You mentioned they were head stamped FC 96, any brass with that head stamp would be crimped, if there was no crimp when he got them, someone had already removed the crimp, and if you get heavy handed removing the crimp you can ruin the primer pockets.

So the possibilities boil down to a choice of:

*If previously reloaded, the load was too hot!

*If once fired military, someone got carried away removing the crimp and ruined the primer pockets.

 

[swifter]

I think g56 has it.
My first thought was "high pressure..."
There's a good reason most manuals reccommend dropping the load 10% if using military brass: Thicker brass = less room in case=more pressure.
Toss the brass, and start fresh with new brass, its much safer!

Tom

 

[uglymofo]

DUH!!!

G56 and Swifter "hammering" the same topic forced a recent experienced to the fore.

I have a bolt rifle with an extremely tight chamber (custom-built gun). I didn't know that after cleaning the bore, one is supposed to dry out the chamber before firing. I only used to do that at the end of the day, at home during the 'prep to go to the safe' inspection.

It turns out that the slop I'd left in the chamber increased pressures to an intolerable point; I was actually extracting cases that didn't have primers in them, the pockets had expanded so much. Cleaning and drying the chamber solved that problem, but my point is, the guys are probably more "on" than "off".

 

[Clark]

SAAMI specifications on primers and primer pockets per "Sinclair International's Precision Reloading & Shooting Handbook" 10th edition 1999

......................Depth min max diameter min max
small rifle primer pocket .117 .123 .1730 .1745
small pistol primer pocket .117 .123 .1730 .1745
Large rifle primer pocket .125 .132 .2085 .2100
Large pistol primer pocket .117 .123 .2085 .2100

.......................Height min max Diameter min max
Small rifle primers .115 .125 .1745 .1765
small pistol primers .115 .125 .1745 .1765
large rifle primers .123 .133 .2105 .2130
large pistol primers .115 .125 .2100 .2120"

So the pocket can be .2100" at the largest, and the primers can be .2105" at the smallest.

It sounds like the primers are ok, so it must be the brass.
Throw the brass away.

 

[saands]

Thanks for the replies ... this batch of brass is en route to the garbage. I will also see if I can learn any more about the origin ... if they were just FMJ's or if they were actually fresh mil-surp ... sound like the former is much more likely than the latter.

Thanks again,
Saands

 

[Clark]

Things could be worse:
1) The brass could be carefully prepped with case mouth chamfered inside and out with no cookie cutter edges, the primer pocket uniformed, the flash hole de burred, the shoulder perfectly formed for an Ackley Improved chamber, and sequentially sorted by weight with extremes culled.
2) The primer could fall out as you were about to take the shot of a lifetime.
3) The caliber could be so obscure that it costs $2k set up charge for a special run of 100 pieces.