Private sales from individuals to individuals prohibited in Austin, TX (merged)

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+1 to what geojap said.

Plus, doesn't the statement about observing illegal transactions (and apparently not prosecuting them) open them up to claims of selective enforcement?


-Matt
 
geojap said:
I think you need to read all the news stories, press releases and APD statements to see what APD and the ATF did. This person in the examiner is spinning things a bit.

Really? A longtime supporter of the Second Amendment who has been active in supporting RKBA for decades suddenly decided to slant a news article against a gun show vendor in favor of the ATF and the Austin PD violating his rights? Could happen I suppose; but I find it unlikely.

geojap said:
APD claimed that they did not directly shut down the show. This is incorrect as they were implicitly involved.

This sentence makes no sense. If Austin PD was "implicitly" involved then by the very definition of "implicit" they were not "directly" involved and therefore this is not "incorrect."

geojap said:
If you look in this press release by the APD, which the Examiner article conveniently does not fully quote, it says that APD requires that their suggestion of "Only licensed gun dealers are allowed to sell firearms at the gun shows" will be followed, or the APD, ATF and HEB will unlawfully shut down his show as he was told in the Thursday, 1/14/2010 meeting.

The press release says no such thing. I am quoting it in full:

Austin PD said:
FROM THE AUSTIN POLICE DEPARTMENT:

Federal Immigration, Customs, and Enforcement (ICE) agents worked cooperatively with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) agents last year in a long-term operation targeting illegal gun trafficking that was stemming from local gun shows. Austin Police Department Firearm Review Unit detectives assisted in the Austin portion of the operation. They observed and participated in multiple arrests of prohibited persons (primarily convicted felons and illegal immigrants) that obtained firearms illegally at a local gun show.
Federal convictions were obtained in a majority of the cases.

Virtually all of these sales to prohibited persons were made by unlicensed dealers or private citizens, both inside the gun show and in the parking lot of the gun show. While the sale of firearms between private citizens is not illegal, the anonymity of these sales in or around the event created an easy avenue for illegal immigrants or convicted felons to acquire firearms. Because of this recurring activity at a single location, the Firearm Review Unit referred the case over to the APD Nuisance Abatement Unit.

Due to the history of criminal activity at the gun show, the Nuisance Abatement Unit scheduled a meeting between the property lessee (HEB Grocery), the building sub-lessee (Andrew Perkel a.k.a Austin Market Place), the event promoter (Darwin Boedecker-Texas Gun Shows) and ATF. During this meeting, APD along with ATF offered to all parties, recommendations to curb the illegal activity that had been documented in the past. At the conclusion of the meeting the lessee agreed that the recommendations should be followed and instructed their sub-lessee to follow the recommendations. The sub-lessee then informed the event promoter to implement the recommendations at the next show. The recommendations that the lessee directed the sub-lessee and the event promoter to follow were:

Only licensed gun dealers are allowed to sell firearms at the gun shows
The promoter will provide on-site security to prevent parking lot gun sales
The promoter will define a process for people other than licensed dealers that show up with a gun that they want to sell
There was an understanding that the January 16-17, 2010 gun show would follow these recommendations.

Now where in that press release does it say that Austin PD requires that their suggestion be followed or they will shut down the show? From the Nemerov article, they say just the opposite:

Nemerov said:
Reyes said ATF and APD did not push for these terms and didn’t threaten to shut down the show if TGS didn’t do this but without agreeing to HEB’s stipulation, TGS would have lost the space.

geojap said:
They have no statutory authority in criminal law or Texas property law to lock him out of that building for which he already had a lease.

No; but I am pretty sure they can act on the request of the lessee (HEB) or sub-lessee (Austin Marketplace), and either of those entities can lock him out of the building, especially if he violates the lease. I notice that Texas Gun Shows isn't alleging breach of contract by HEB or Austin Marketplace; but instead is trying to find a new place without those restrictions.

It seems to me that people want to blame Austin PD and ATF (look at the thread title for example); but this seems to be primarily a civil dispute between the main lessee (HEB) and a sub-sub-lessee (Texas Gun Shows). HEB says the lease already contained the FFL clause. For example:

Nemerov said:
Perry said HEB came into the meeting planning to void the contract and evict the gun show. The sub-lessee and TGS asked if they could work out a compromise. At this point, HEB asked for recommendations from the APD. HEB then reminded TGS that their original contract contained the FFL rule. After agreeing to comply with the existing contract terms, HEB agreed to give it another try.

MattTheHat said:
Plus, doesn't the statement about observing illegal transactions (and apparently not prosecuting them) open them up to claims of selective enforcement?

I guess I missed the part where they said they observed illegal transactions but did not do anything about them. Could you point me towards that? The part I remember reading is that they made 8 arrests at the previous Saxet Gun Show at the same location and the Nuisance Abatement Team was called in. Because a nuisance is classified by location, the switch of gun show promoters did not affect this. HEB cooperated with the nuisance abatement team, and (if you can believe the Nemerov article) asked TGS to observe the terms of its lease, then cancelled that lease after TGS complained post-show.
 
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Bart, I respect you as a mod here since this is one of my favorite forums, but I respectfully disagree with you here.

Bart, I was a landlord. You absolutely cannot lock a tenant out of the building if they have a signed lease for it. You have to evict them which is either 30 days from notice or else whatever is stipulated in the lease. Call a lawyer if you disagree, I've paid several thousand dollars to lawyers already to know this professionally. Again, the lessee, APD and ATF were acting outside any authority when they threatened to shut him down.

This sentence makes no sense. If Austin PD was "implicitly" involved then by the very definition of "implicit" they were not "directly" involved and therefore this is not "incorrect."

If I pay someone else to kill someone with me, I was still responsible. That is what APD did with HEB to Boedeker and is why they are responsible. APD's claim to the contrary that they are not responsible for Texas Gun Shows being banned from the Crocket Center is a lie.

The press release says no such thing. I am quoting it in full:

Bart, you did quote it and it's right here. I already quoted it. "Only licensed gun dealers are allowed to sell firearms at the gun shows" I can't make it any more clear than that. Since he would not abide by their "suggestion", APD was able to scare HEB into shutting down his show. There is no difference between me suggesting something and then shutting you down if you don't follow the suggestion, or me outright requiring you to do it. That's a silly semantics ploy. That really is outright deception and tyranny because they knew what they were doing.

I guess I missed the part where they said they observed illegal transactions but did not do anything about them. Could you point me towards that?

Here:
APD Detective T.J. Vineyard told reporters: "Every time we were there we observed transactions that were either questionable or illegal so our effort was to find ways to address that,” he said.
http://www.kvue.com/news/local/Gun-show-owner-alleges-rights-violation-82115242.html

So I'm assuming the police were there every single gun show (and getting paid from my property tax money from my paycheck) and observed illegal activity? So there must be at minimum 12 arrests a year. How can my tax money go to pay such an inept group that only arrested eight in the 15+ years that the Saxet and Texas Gun Shows have operated in Austin when they observed illegal activity EVERY SINGLE MONTH? That is over 180 months of observing illegal activity and only 8 arrests while observing illegal activity every single time! Wow! That's terrible!

To date, no one has shown one illegal thing Boedeker has done, but he has had his livelihood shut down based on suspicion where there is no statutory authority to do so by a gang of thugs operating outside the law.
 
Also, if the APD observed illegal transactions, why didn't they make arrests? That is their job, not to use completely undocumented suspicion and conjecture to shut down the legitimate businessman completely outside a court of law.

Agreed completely.


However, in Texas rental law, it normally takes 30 days to evict a tenant for breach of a lease which I assume was already signed.

True in residential leases that I've evicted under. But, as I understand it that is not necessarily true in commercial leases. From what I've observed in commercial leases there is much more lee way, and in most cases it's what the lease says not what an arbitrary law says. If the landlord invokes and locks you out on 3 minutes notice you have to go to court to prove he violated the lease, not the law. In the meantime you're business is shut down etc.
 
Bart, I respect you as a mod here since this is one of my favorite forums, but I respectfully disagree with you here.

I am no longer a moderator here.

Bart, I was a landlord. You absolutely cannot lock a tenant out of the building if they have a signed lease for it. You have to evict them which is either 30 days from notice or else whatever is stipulated in the lease. Call a lawyer if you disagree, I've paid several thousand dollars to lawyers already to know this professionally.

I am a lawyer. In Texas even and I practice primarily in real property and look at around 100 leases a month or so. Whether or not HEB can do what they did depends on what the lease said and the exact contractual relationship that HEB has with TGS. I don't know enough facts to say with any certainty whether HEB can or cannot do this in this case.

All I know is that they did and the sub-sub-lessee here (TGS) is looking for a new place to have a show rather than attempting to sue HEB or Austin Markets for breach of contract. So that suggests to me that he doesn't think he has a case - especially since violating a written contract is not a tough one to prove.

Again, the lessee, APD and ATF were acting outside any authority when they threatened to shut him down.

Except according to the APD Press Release, the APD PR Officer quoted in Nemerov's article, and the ATF Officer Reyes, quoted in Nemerov's article, they never threatened to shut down the gun show or required that their conditions be adopted.


If I pay someone else to kill someone with me, I was still responsible. That is what APD did with HEB to Boedeker and is why they are responsible. APD's claim to the contrary that they are not responsible for Texas Gun Shows being banned from the Crocket Center is a lie.

If that is what you want to say, then use words that mean that. That is all I was saying. Your previous sentence made no logical sense.

Bart, you did quote it and it's right here. I already quoted it. "Only licensed gun dealers are allowed to sell firearms at the gun shows" I can't make it any more clear than that.

Except that you keep neglecting the part where APD did not insist on that condition for the show to continue, HEB did. You claim that APD required this condition for the show to continue; but the APD Public Affairs guy says that they made no such condition and that HEB was the one to insist on it. The ATF guy says "HEB reminded Boedekker FFL sales was part of the original contract."

Since he would not abide by their "suggestion", APD was able to scare HEB into shutting down his show.

How did APD scare HEB into shutting the show down? Do you think APD just strong arms a local business like HEB whenever they want? This is a Texas based company employing 70,000 workers (more than a few of them high-caliber lawyers) with $13.5 billion in revenue. A company of that size and power can sell marijuana out of their pharmacy and it would be hard for the city to shut them down. So how did Austin PD manage to scare them into shutting down the show when it was 100% legal? Not just scare them into shutting down; but scare them into violating their contract and exposing themselves to civil liability if I am to believe some of the claims you have asserted in this thread?

The Nuisance Abatement team was involved. Depending on how Austin's municipal nuisance law is written, this might be one lever Austin PD could use. After all, the city of Dallas abused this law to the degree that they got smacked down in the state legislature for wielding it like a third-world banana republic. Of course, Dallas wasn't stupid enough to try those tactics on a corporation like HEB and primarily targeted small business owners who couldn't fight back.

However, my primary point is that your "narrative" lacks some important details - one of which being an explanation of how Austin PD and ATF managed to "scare" a $13 billion corporation with no evidence or legal basis for it.

To date, no one has shown one illegal thing Boedeker has done, but he has had his livelihood shut down based on suspicion where there is no statutory authority to do so by a gang of thugs operating outside the law.

I am going to skip nitpicking the rest of your blame-slinging on this and just assume that what you really want to do is correct the problem. From my perspective, we have several problems with the conflicting narratives here:

1.You allege that Boedeker has had his livelihood shut down by a "gang of thugs operating outside the law."

What we do know happened is that HEB cancelled his lease. So that seems like the logical place to start if we want to correct this - if there is no legal basis for that cancellation and Boedekker has suffered damages as a result, he needs to recover those damages from HEB.

If there was a legal basis for HEB to cancel that contract, then about all we can do is hold HEB responsible for its corporate practices and complain to HEB.

2. You allege that HEB did this because Austin PD and ATF scared them into it, even though there is no legal basis for it.

This is problematic; because as a general rule, a local PD that tries to strong-arm a $13.5 billion corporation providing 70,000 jobs (including a good number in Austin) had better have a sound legal basis or it is going to get lawyer-piled. So if your charges are true, we should all be concerned because if they can muscle a $13.5 billion corporation with no legal basis, then you and I are screwed.

However, the evidence for this unlikely piece of the story is pretty thin. The only one making that claim is Boedeker and he doesn't offer any actual facts in support of that claim other than these parties were present at the meeting.

If you want to have any kind of traction as far as making Austin PD or ATF be held responsible for TGS losing its show, then you need to figure out what leverage they used and how - because without that information, you don't have any credible way to make this a story about Austin PD and ATF rather than HEB and TGS.

ETA: One other thing about this case - if the "public" narrative becomes "<villain of choice here> is trying to prevent firearms from being sold without background checks" then not only will nothing improve about this issue, you can actually do harm to RKBA. I get the feeling that ABC in Austin did not run with this story because they thought Boedeker was sympathetic. I think they thought it would be a great case of giving people they disliked (gun show promoters) enough rope to hang themselves. There are other good narratives here that do help us "Evil corporation/city council/cops/ATF crushes legal business because of bigotry" for example; but we better make sure we can control that narrative before we make a big issue of it.
 
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I don't want to derail the thread here, but after 20+ years of being politically aware I don't dismiss anything out of hand anymore - even Alex Jones. I've been in meetings where you could actually see tin foil hats growing out of people's heads, and the older I get the more I realize that some of what they say is coming or has come to pass. So while I take the tin foil guys with a giant grain of salt I don't just dismiss them anymore.

Having said that, what are we going to do about not having a gunshow in Austin?
 
@ Bartholomew Roberts

Having read your comments and geojap's and the articles, it would seem that HEB is the sole party to talk to about closing the show...which they appear to legally be able to do if it was in their contract.

But I don't think there is really anything to talk to HEB about or boycott them for. My thinking is that they do not want the legal and PR issues that could fall on them if there are illegal firearms being sold in one of their properties (which the APD apparently have witnessed).

The way I see it, the reason they have the FFL only in their contract was to prevent the potential legal and PR problems that could arise. Essentially they were trying to allow the show to take place, but shield themselves from legal and PR nightmares that could arise if there are people who are performing questionable or illegal person to person sales (hence the FFL only part of the contract).

When that part of the contract was violated, they did what was in their (and their stock holders) best interest.

Again, they were not preventing the show, just covering their bases. And the lessee broke the contract, so if we want to be upset at someone, perhaps it should be them.

Is my assessment of the situation about right (specifically the legal aspect of it)?


Really, I'm trying to be reasonable about this and I'd be the first to jump on the boycott bandwagon if I thought they really were trying to be anti-2Aish. But I just don't see it.
 
Is my assessment of the situation about right (specifically the legal aspect of it)?

Well part of the problem is that we have so few actual facts (and with some of the facts we do have conflicting) about this situation that there are probably 10-12 widely varying scenarios that fit the facts we do have.

For example, as one poster pointed out to me on another forum, the ATF and Austin PD are actually telling two different stories in the Nemerov article. ATF is saying that HEB reminded Boedeker that the FFL sales clause was part of their original contract. Austin PD is saying that HEB planned to evict Boedeker; but agreed not to if Boedeker would accept the FFL clause in his contract.

One thing to keep in mind is that the Nuisance Abatement Team isn't a bunch of guys coming over to warn you over tea that you will be fined if you don't start trimming your bushes. Nuisance Abatement can involve the city seizing the property from the current owner, so they do have some significant leverage - completely legal leverage - but a tool that can be used against HEB all the same.

On the other hand, showing up to a $13.5 billion corporation that employs 70,000 people, most of them in your state and city, and telling them that you are going to seize their property without a really good case backing it is a good way to get bit on the ass.
 
All I know is that they did and the sub-sub-lessee here (TGS) is looking for a new place to have a show rather than attempting to sue HEB or Austin Markets for breach of contract. So that suggests to me that he doesn't think he has a case...

I beg to differ. There are many different reasons not to pursue a lawsuit besides guilt. Among them are money, time, distance, and laziness. I can not even begin to imagine what a lawsuit naming not only a giant corporation like HEB, but also the city and the federal governments would cost, but unless your independently wealthy or have an attorney who's a crusader it could be devastating financially just to try to get them all served. And of course let's not forget that Boedecker lives 4 hours away, and may not have the time to handle a lawsuit that far from home. Of course laziness needs no explanation, it may just be easier for him find another option and let it go.

Regardless, not filing a lawsuit does not mean that he's the guilty party here.
 
Bart, I respect what you said and it sounds logical. I can answer many of your questions if you listen to the hour-long Boedeker interview from Monday. He tells the whole side of his story there. I posted it earlier in this thread.

I agree with Danpkr, Boedeker specifically said he doesn't have the resources to hire a lawyer to sue, especially since much of his business was just shut down.

Here is the Boedeker interview and you will have the answers to your questions about why I was saying what I did:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uc-gFyPV3Dw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMc4kptEOvQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTC8S6LrzZM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOysmhE8jiI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciBeIf6piNY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9lulja1tTs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byqYad3NlPw
 
Also Bart, it sounds to me like Boedeker made the mistakes of:

1. Meeting with the police and
2. Especially meeting with them without counsel.

Never speak to the police unless you have counsel. I get along great with Texas police and state troopers and respect them greatly. But if there is ever an issue where it escalates above anything more than a traffic ticket, you need counsel if you are going to talk to them, because their job isn't to have idle chats. That's just not their job.
 
Regardless, not filing a lawsuit does not mean that he's the guilty party here.

No, it certainly doesn't. I am a lawyer and I don't sue everyone I could sue. In most cases because I can make more money working for paying clients than I can suing them for free.

However, based on what I've read Boedeker's eviction was probably perfectly in keeping with his contract. Here is a good hint: Boedeker signed the FFL sales only clause. Now if you have a legal contract with HEB that they can't break, why would you sign a clause you object to? If the company is threatening to breach the contract and throw you out illegally, why would you think they would act different once you signed a new contract?

If you read between the lines, it looks a lot like Boedeker had no negotiating leverage with HEB, probably because HEB's lawyers had lots of escape clauses in their leases.

. Especially meeting with them without counsel.

Yes, if you look around the room and you are the only one at a meeting not represented by a lawyer, that is probably a bad sign. In this case though, I would say that the police weren't Boedeker's main legal problem, his contractual relationship with HEB was -that is why he needed a lawyer.

In any case, let's get back to the main question: How do we fix it so that this doesn't happen again? Because if they can pull this off in Texas, then there are a lot of cities out there about to be without gun shows...

If you complain to the property owner who was in a hard business spot (fight City Hall for lessee who doesn't bring in that much money and maybe lose property or cooperate and lose lessee), all that does is give him crap from both sides and insure he avoids leasing to gun shows in the future.

If you complain to the PD, they can say "Hey, that was all the property owner's decision."

If you complain to ATF, they are even further removed than the PD.

It seems to me that the only place to really affect this policy is by removing the police chiefs/elected representatives who pursue it or rewriting the nuisance abatement laws to give the property owner more leeway.
 
In any case, let's get back to the main question: How do we fix it so that this doesn't happen again? Because if they can pull this off in Texas, then there are a lot of cities out there about to be without gun shows...

Yes, and that's a point I've been thinking about. I believe that the "FFL sales only" stipulation in this contract (if there is one) may be unique, and I wonder where it came from in the first place, and why (apparently) no attempt was made to enforce it earlier. It would seem that the property owner and various agents weren't interested until this recent meeting came up, and so far there is no evidence that Austin's Nuisance Abatement Team had previously contacted the property owner or HEB concerning the matter, or if they did why nothing was said or done until now.

Then there is a question concerning why was an ATF&E agent present? That agency has no authority to oversee private sales between individuals that live in the same state unless a "prohibited person" is somehow involved. A gun show promoter isn't liable unless they have (or should have) knowledge of illegal acts, or are a party to them. At the very least the ATF&E should have first sent a letter to the show promoter stating the agency's concerns and also possible steps he could take to prevent it.

Also, how did the Austin Police Department and ATF&E know there was a "FFL only" stipulation (if there was one) in the contract in the first place?

There are a lot of unanswered questions here, but I am wondering if we are looking at the beginning of a new national strategy to close the fictional "gun show loophole?"
 
In any case, let's get back to the main question: How do we fix it so that this doesn't happen again? Because if they can pull this off in Texas, then there are a lot of cities out there about to be without gun shows...

Fair enough. I wrote HEB when I first heard of this, and this is what I got back:

Dear Mr. ______:



Thank you for contacting H-E-B. We appreciate you sharing your views and comments with us.



H-E-B is committed to providing a safe and secure environment for our customers, Partners and the communities we serve. We have been a good corporate citizen for more than 100 years, and follow all local, state and federal recommendations and laws. We expect vendors and independent contractors that do business with us to do so as well.



Due to a recent incident, we decided it was in the best interest of the North Lamar neighborhood and surrounding communities that the event no longer continue at this location until the issue is resolved.



We genuinely value your comments and your business.



Sincerely,



H-E-B Customer Relations

Which is pretty much the type of pc non-answer that's sort of an answer that I expected. Now I didn't urge a boycott, or tell them I'd never shop there again. I did mention that I worked near a Randals, and it wouldn't be that hard for me to switch. So maybe some of the more forceful letters got a different response.

Also, I was thinking of that location today as I was driving through for work, and realized that it ain't the best neighborhood in town. 20+ years ago it was upper middle class, but now it's only 1 or at best 2 steps from the hood. The other half of the building is a flea market that draws some really shady looking folks. I wonder how much of the 'illegal buying' was due to them taking advantage of the gun show cover on those weekends?

Regardless, none of that answers the question - what do we do now?

I'm wide open to suggestions.

Also, on another diversion from current topic - I'd give a few bucks to the Boedecker's legal defense fund if he does choose to sue. Right now we're VERY light on facts and it'd be worth it to me to get everything into public record, and shine the light of day on it. That way we'd all know more about it.
 
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It doesn't matter which direction this goes, this stunt here was enough to make me do all of my shopping at Albertsons for now on. I'm really dreading the day that this happens in my back yard too, It's coming i can feel it.
 
H-E-B is committed to providing a safe and secure environment for our customers, Partners and the communities we serve. We have been a good corporate citizen for more than 100 years, and follow all local, state and federal recommendations and laws. We expect vendors and independent contractors that do business with us to do so as well.

"Recommendations" as well as laws. So all that's necessary is a recommendation from a police department or the BATF&E - even if that agency has no authority over the matter. This gun show promoter didn't stand a chance - right or wrong.

And in theory, if not practice this could happen to any gun show operator in the country if either the local police/sheriff department or BATF&E wanted him gone. :banghead:
 
Regardless, none of that answers the question - what do we do now?

Well, I really don't think we need to boycott HEB.

Realize that they are a business that wants to say out any PR and legal nightmares they can. I can understand and respect that.

And when a government agency "recommends" you do something, I don't think they are just making a casual suggestion.


If we really want to do something I should think it would have to do with APD and the liberal/anti-2A stance of the area.
 
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Time for a LAWSUIT!

Well, as I said I'd donate to the legal fund if he decides to file, but that still doesn't answer the question - what are we going to do for a gun show in Austin? I'd planned on going to Dallas in Feb, but I hate not having one here.
 
Way too many posts to read on this subject, so please forgive me if this has already been posted.

APD and the City of Austin have a long history of this abuse. They shut down gunshows in the Muncipal Auditorium and any other public buildings the same way, by using illegal means and methods. Austin is the SanFran of the Southwest. These old communists can't stand firearms, and are the biggest crooks and liars in the state.

I listened to the news casts covering this when it happened, and was livid. All sales not conducted by an FFL were constantly labeled as "illegal" and buyers were mentioned as criminals. None of the things they claimed happened, and I would love to see them document any of this in a court room. I would love to see these elected and appointed criminals jailed as they deserve.
 
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