Problems in 357 lever running Lee TL358-158SWC bullet at stated OAL.

[Analogkid]

I have a few 357 mag lever guns that do not like the Lee TL358-158swc bullet at the stated OAL in my manuals They function just fine through the action but I have a issue loading to maximum capacity in the tube. Seems like they are getting hung up in the tube on the last lube ring bearing surface at about the 5th one in. I have loaded some 357 cases to 38 special specs and loaded the same bullet down to just to the middle of the last tumble lube ring and can get them to function and fill the tube with no issues.


My concern is loading these to full house 357 mag loading with 2400 or h110 and setting the bullet that far in. Its probably another .060" further down in that what the books state to get them to load into the tube with no issues. I am using a rossi 92 and a marlin in 357 and the bullets are wheel weight lead and are powdercoated.

Maybe I am just overthinking it all and it won't be a issue. But I thought I would ask the groups thoughts...

 

[tightgroup tiger]

You said the 5 one in is sticking, further up inside the tube or at the gate?

Are you resizing your bullets after you powercoat them?

Also, There isn't much of a lube groove on those bullets to crimp into. If you over crimping at all you can oversize the mouth of the case.

I use that same mold and I don't think I would shoot those wheel weight bullets loaded with H110 or 2400, you will get a lot of leading in the barrel.
Wheel weight lead is to soft even if dropping your bullets in cold water out of the mold. That will harden them up some but not enough for H110 and 2400 loads.
I'm afraid the bullet will skid in the barrel trying to break inertia to start spinning. If you see leading at and past the forcing cone that is what will be causing it.

 

[Analogkid]

Yes I am resizing after powdercoat. The leading is a absolute non issue. I can run these all day at max pressure and never see any leading.

Question was mainly how far down into the case can this bullet be set to load to max in the tube

 

[Charlie98]

I don't see why you can't seat the bullet deeper, but you will have to reduce your load to starting and work back up, again.

 

[AJC1]

Yes I am resizing after powdercoat. The leading is a absolute non issue. I can run these all day at max pressure and never see any leading.

Question was mainly how far down into the case can this bullet be set to load to max in the tube

I ran that bullet and the noe which is almost identical at full mag power no problem. Powdercoat seems to make leading a problem of the past. I'm running bhn 11 and water dropped ww are harder than that.

 

[EricBu]

If running them short works for you, then I see no problem, just rework your load to account, especially if you're already bumping max. Remember, H110 doesn't like a lot of empty space, so don't reduce too much. I've run SWC's all the way down to flush with the shoulder chasing accuracy, though for lever guns, they seem to need at least a bit of lip for function, plus crimping over the shoulder can allow setback. The nice thing about powder coat, unlike plating...you can roll crimp right into the bullet and it's not going cause the coating to seperate, though I will admit I've never done that with a full power coated bullet in 357 Mag, so maybe smarter guys than me can chime in there experiences there. I think the gotchya would be too heavy a roll crimp slightly bulging case mouth.....which will definitely get you with a lever gun. With H110, I've found the best performance to figure load by capacity...I like it to ****just*** be filled to bottom of bullet. I'd start by figuring how deep you want to seat that bullet, get that sorted, then figure out your H110 charge to where it's just barely filled to the base of the bullet, minimal empty space without compressing..seems to be the magic working area for that powder. Weigh that, see where you are in the book to make sure you aren't exceeding max. Most of the time, I've found that it ends up somewhere right in the middle of the published loads for a similar bullet on loaddata.com...."""most""" of the time.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Question was mainly how far down into the case can this bullet be set to load to max in the tube

Max quantity, not Max pressure.

You can load down to the first lube groove. Keep in mind the TL stands for "Tumble Lube." This bullet is designed to be ALOX pan-lubed and shot at moderate velocities over pistol powders - Unique, No.5, Red Dot, HP38/W231, Bullseye, and that general class of powders - not small rifle powders like 2400, H110/W296/No.9 etc. in a carbine. Your application is fine and I'm not saying don't do it but you're not sticking to the intended use of the bullet so you are going to have to adjust your load accordingly. The bullet when seated to the last (top) lube groove is consuming 0.39" x pi x R-squared case volume. Subtract that from the total case volume of the cases you're using and what remains is the volume of powder charge space + air space. Calculate the powder volume + air space case volume consumed in your data source and adjust your powder charge proportionally.

Mathematics is good. Calculus is better.

 

[Analogkid]

I'm loading to that last groove. I thought I stated that in the first post? I am hanging up loading it even there. It will only load the full tube if I go past that last lube groove.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I'm loading to that last groove. I thought I stated that in the first post? I am hanging up loading it even there. It will only load the full tube if I go past that last lube groove.

I read this:

Seems like they are getting hung up in the tube on the last lube ring bearing surface

...and it sounded like the last/top lube groove was not where you were crimping.

As long as you lower the powder charge so you don't end up with a compressed load, you should be okay seating to the top of the wad cutting edge and rolling over the edge, just like you would with a full wad cutter. I think some of the advice about not over-crimping or going too tight is sound and ought to be checked/double-checked as well.

 

[AJC1]

I'm loading to that last groove. I thought I stated that in the first post? I am hanging up loading it even there. It will only load the full tube if I go past that last lube groove.

I would recommend you try a different mold. The best part about lee molds are there cheap. Grab the round nose flat point cowboy mold and see if that works better. Hell if you are willing to spend on a noe mold I'll mail you a few to try first. That shape I just don't think is going to cycle or feed optimally.

 

[Bazoo]

You said the 5 one in is sticking, further up inside the tube or at the gate?

Are you resizing your bullets after you powercoat them?

Also, There isn't much of a lube groove on those bullets to crimp into. If you over crimping at all you can oversize the mouth of the case.

I use that same mold and I don't think I would shoot those wheel weight bullets loaded with H110 or 2400, you will get a lot of leading in the barrel.
Wheel weight lead is to soft even if dropping your bullets in cold water out of the mold. That will harden them up some but not enough for H110 and 2400 loads.
I'm afraid the bullet will skid in the barrel trying to break inertia to start spinning. If you see leading at and past the forcing cone that is what will be causing it.

You're mistaken about leading with using ww alloy at full pressure loadings. I use a different bullet, an RCBS 38-150-SWC from ww+sn alloy, with 16.8 w296, CCI 550, in 357 magnum cases, in my gp100, and it shoots clean. I'm using Lars white label 50/50 lube.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

You're mistaken about leading with using ww alloy at full pressure loadings. I use a different bullet, an RCBS 38-150-SWC from ww+sn alloy, with 16.8 w296, CCI 550, in 357 magnum cases, in my gp100, and it shoots clean. I'm using Lars white label 50/50 lube.

I'm using the Alox that Lee sells that is supposed to stop the leading and it really doesn't work for me. Are you filling all the tumble lube grooves with the Lars white label lube?

 

[Bazoo]

I've not had stellar success with Lee liquid alox. I do use it though, with the tumble lube bullets in 45 acp. It works acceptably for me there. I get minor leading with the lee TL452-230-2R and TL452-230-TC. I've used it straight, and as a mixture with Johnson paste wax. I do about a 2:1 mixture alox / wax. The same gun, using RCBS 45-201-SWC and Lars 50/50, it offers no leading. All sized .452

The RCBS bullet I mentioned (38-150-SWC) has only one lube groove.

Slightly off subject. I have a lee ranchdog 432-265-RF tumble lube gas check bullet. I run them through my Lyman sizer and lube them with Lars 50/50. When I ran them in 44 mag they did well. I don't have a magnum 44 now, but they continue to do well in 44 special. I've yet to try it with lees alox, one day.

 

[forrest r]

You should be using the lyman 358156 data with that lee tl-158gr bullet.

OP,
Any time you're not sure about a bullet measure how much of the bullet is being seated in the case and then ask others what others are using for 158gr bullet/amount of bullet in the case.

The lyman 358156 bullet has .375" of the bullets body seated in the case when crimped as it should be, in the top crimp groove.

 

[buck460XVR]

Marlin in the past, has recommended against the use of SWCs in it's Lever guns. I would assume it has to do with feeding. That said, I know of folks that use a Kieth style SWC in their levers and have no issues with feeding at all. I'm gonna guess that seating the bullet deeper than the last lube grove takes the "shoulder" off the bullet, basically making it a RNFP, the preferred bullet shape for tube feed guns. I see no issue with doing this as long as powder charge is adjusted for the reduced case capacity.

 

[AJC1]

Marlin in the past, has recommended against the use of SWCs in it's Lever guns. I would assume it has to do with feeding. That said, I know of folks that use a Kieth style SWC in their levers and have no issues with feeding at all. I'm gonna guess that seating the bullet deeper than the last lube grove takes the "shoulder" off the bullet, basically making it a RNFP, the preferred bullet shape for tube feed guns. I see no issue with doing this as long as powder charge is adjusted for the reduced case capacity.

The meplat on that round is larger than what I would consider a normal flat point and I would never give up a crimp grove on a tube fed gun. A new mold is 35 bucks and that is nothing in the reloading game.