Problems with my NEW Hornady LNL AP Press

[Lucas McDennis]

Most of my loading experience has been on a pair of Lee Load Masters. I have learned how to keep them running well, and I like them a lot, but heard so many good things about the Hornady press that I just had to have one.

After a little playing around with my new Hornady, my first volume production run was on 7.62x39R, and the press worked great. The Hornady powder measure was very consistent and trouble-free in dropping 18.5 grains of IMR 4227 for the load I like to use (yes, it cycles the SKS action just fine).

My next major loading project was .45 acp. That went well too, using the RCBS powder check, and the Hornady powder measure performed tolerably well (though not superbly) with 5.5 grains of Titegroup (maybe not the best powder for the particular load, but I have 8 pounds of it to shoot up, and it works well enough).

Unfortunately, I hit a couple serious snags on loading .357 mag. One problem is that, for me, the powder measure is extremely erratic in dropping 3.4 grains of Trail Boss. For this powder, I get best results without the baffle, but it's still not good. It never over-charges, but sometimes under-charges enough for the RCBS powder-check to catch it. That's bad. I finally switched to the Lee powder measure, which meters Trail Boss superbly (and is generally much easier to work with than the Hornady). There's another problem I have with the Hornady powder measure, but that's related to the more critical problem detailed below.

The big problem SEEMS to be that the loose-tolerance #6 shell plate, which handles 7.62x39R so well, is a bit sloppy for .357 mag cases. They're not being held accurately enough to always enter the dies (or maybe there’s something else going on?). It's not an indexing problem. The indexing is spot on, and locks up tight. But about 1 in 4 cases will be misaligned enough radially to miss the opening to the sizing die, locking the press. If I force it, I of course destroy the brass. I have to back off and guide the case into the die by hand.

I was having the same alignment problem with the Hornady powder drop, until switching to the Lee, which definitely is more forgiving of alignment tolerance. Next comes the RCBS powder check. It often hangs on the case mouth, though this is more rare; maybe one out of 10 cases. That only happens on the LoadMasters when I have an indexing problem, which is exceedingly rare.

Finally, with the full wadcutter bullets I'm playing with now for revolvers, I have to manually guide each one into the seating die to avoid misalignment problems. Again, I don’t have this problem with the Lee LoadMaster machines when the indexing is working right.

So, with brass fed automatically, for full speed operation I would need one hand to crank the press, one to feed and hold the bullet, one to align the brass to the sizer, and one to align the brass to the powder check. That's four hands, and I only have two, so loading .357 is a slow process for me. Faster than a turret press, but lots slower than the Load-Master.

Talked to "Bob" in customer service at Hornady, who said he'd send another #6 shell plate and retainer spring just to see what happens, but he seemed genuinely interested in finding a solution. The new shellplate and a pair of springs arrived today (FREE of course; Hornady has a good reputation for customer service), but I’m still having the same alignment problem.

For now I can just load my .357’s on one of the Loadmasters, but that’s what I shoot the highest volume of, and it would be nice if I could get the Hornady sorted out for it.

Any suggestions? Thanks in advance.

 

[Blue68f100]

Do you have the pistol rotor and cylinder installed? It should be used for loads <15gr. If I recall it comes with the rifle rotor installed.

Make sure your shell plate is tight. If it's loose it causes the brass to tilt out at the top.

All of your alignments problems would lend me to think the press is not indexing right. Place your fingers on the shell plate while you advance the plate. Some times you can feel it if hearing is not very good.

You can check shell plates for warpage by using a straight edge. If warped it will also cause the brass to tilt.

When working with lead bullets, they require a little more flare. You may not be applying enough.

 

[BYJO4]

As far as you RCBS lock out die, do you have the small plastic tip on it as opposed to the large? On the powder measure, are you using the pistol rotor and insert? When seating the bullet, I insert the bullet on the upstroke after the shell plate indexes. You may need just a little more case mouth flare it bullet wont start into case. As far as the sizing die is concerned, I would call Hornady back and tell them the new shell plate did not fix problem. They may have to have press sent to them along with the die to correct problem (since press is new I'm sure they will cover shipping). I've even had this problem on my single stage press with different makes of brass.

 

[Lucas McDennis]

Thanks guys.

Blue68f100: Yes, I have the pistol rotor and standard fittings attached for .357 (in fact a friend of mine, who is NOT having the alignment problem for his .38's, is also having problems using Trail Boss in the Hornaday, and he claims to get better results, though still not very good, using the rifle rotor instead, also without baffle). Used the rifle rotor for the heavier charge of 4227 for the one rifle caliber I worked with earlier, but otherwise the pistol rotor. The shell plate is very snug, but indeed the .357 cases are "tilting out at the top". I have to push them inward to get them in alignment with the dies. As of today I have two #6 shellplates, because Hornady just sent me a new one. Behavior is identical with both. Unlikely, but they could both be warped. I'll check. Also, I've loaded upwards of 15,000 rounds of lead ammo, so I know the flares needed for each bullet I work with. It's not a flaring problem. With the cases tilting outward, wadcutters don't enter the seating die, but rather get pushed down by the edge of the die. I have to tilt their tops in toward the center to get the bullets to enter the die.

BYJO4: Yes, I use the small plastic tip for .357 and similar calibers, large for .44 mag, .45 acp etc. The large one simply won't enter a .357 case. Rather, the outward tilting of the cases causes occasional interference between the tip and the rim of the case mouth. Yes, I'm inserting the bullets on the upstroke, but seating them squarely into a generous flare can't correct for the outward tilting of the brass. In fact, setting them in at an angle might even work better in this case, but of course that's not the solution. As for brass, I was working with previously fired Starline cases earlier, but today I was using brand new Starline cases. Problem is the same for all.

I suspect that I will have to send this press back to Hornady, unfortunately. Something's not right. I was just hoping somebody had been down this road before. Once again, I found perfect happiness loading 7.62x39 and .45acp, and I have a lot of other calibers to try out.

 

[Blue68f100]

One other thing to check is how much play you have between the base and shell plate. If your shell plate is setting to high this indicates the inner shaft may be too long (or base ground to thin), out of spec. The shell plate can have the center section where it bolts on to thick which also raises the shell plate. But getting 2 they same indicates it's not the shell plate. Hornady should have a design spec for this. So with the shell plate tight use a feeler gauge to check clearance between the shell plate and base.

If you push down on the shell plate does the brass straighten up? Do you use anything to back the shell plate when you tighten the retaining bolt? If not it may not be fully down. Use a couple of empty brass to back it while you tighten the cap bolt.

Which part of world are you in. Your profile does not show this.

Hornady will probably send you out a new press on your next call to them. Unless they know something else to try. It will take about the same time for your shell plate to receive. They will want the old press back and will supply a return label. Their engineers will determine what is out of spec and which contractor supplied it.

Some powders just do not meter well in this rotor design, stick/tubular/Large Flake. Ball powders have always been the easiest to meter. It was that way back in the 60's with RCBS Uniflow too. If you can add something to shake/vibrate the hopper/dispenser to settle it, you can get consistent drops but that's not a option on AP.

 

[DickM]

I had the exact same problem loading with Trail Boss on the LNL AP using the pistol rotor - the large light flakes of TB were apparently bridging at times, resulting in erratic and very light drops. The solution for me was to simply switch to the rifle rotor with its larger diameter cavity. I'm loading 5 gr in .45 Colt for CAS, so any minor inconsistencies resulting from using the larger cavity rotor are inconsequential.

I also have problems, though seemingly not as bad as yours, with cases tipping in some calibers due to a bit of unnecessary clearance between the base plate and shell plate which allows the retaining spring to tip the case outward a small amount. I haven't fully resolved that one yet, but it appears to be more problematical with some brands of dies that have less of a flare at the mouth.

 

[Master Blaster]

The tipping/ misalignment issue is because the shell plate bolt unscrews itself, and you have to finger tighten it periodically, maybe a touch of lock tite (very small amount on a small spot) or nail polish would remedy this, I just tighten mine periodically as I load.

The Hornady measure is inaccurate with small loads of pistol powder PERIOD.
I gave up on mine after about 20,000 or so rounds loaded. It will not accurately meter, Trailboss, W-231, Unique, or Bullseye.

I gave up on mine for SMALL VOLUME PISTOL loads and replaced it with a Dillon measure which is spot on.

Others will be along soon to tell you its YOU or your imagination because theirs is perfect every time.

 

[longdayjake]

You might try attaching some kind of vibrator to your powder measure so that you can minimize the amount of bridging that might occur.

I personally don't think there is anything wrong with the press since you mentioned that it worked fine with your 7.62x39. What brand of .357 brass are you using?

 

[longdayjake]

I gave up on mine after about 20,000 or so rounds loaded. It will not accurately meter, Trailboss, W-231, Unique, or Bullseye.

I gave up on mine for SMALL VOLUME PISTOL loads and replaced it with a Dillon measure which is spot on.

Others will be along soon to tell you its YOU or your imagination because theirs is perfect every time.

My guess is that if you were having those problems it was either YOU or you just got a bad measure. I know several competitors that took the dillon measure off of their 650 and replaced it with a hornady. The hornady measure is a good one.

 

[DickM]

The tipping/ misalignment issue is because the shell plate bolt unscrews itself, and you have to finger tighten it periodically, maybe a touch of lock tite (very small amount on a small spot) or nail polish would remedy this, I just tighten mine periodically as I load.

Yes, it occurred to me that might be the problem but unfortunately in my case the bolt was good and tight, so no dice.

 

[Muddydogs]

The shell plate bolt should not unscrew it's self, but a wrench on it and tighten it down properly. Fi.ger tight is not proper. The LnL powder measure meters just fine, I meter 5 grains of Unique all day long. Make small adjustments when adjusting and remember that powder can settle with use which can effect the weight over time.

 

[jmorris]

For small charges down to 2.8g I prefer the Dillon measure. I am not a fan of trailboss or extruded powders, so when I do load with them I understand I'm going to have to put up with their issues. If you load with larger volumes of trailboss, like for subsonic rifle loads, the hornady measure does a good job.

On your 357 problem, do the dies you are using have a good chamfer on them? I have old dies that I use on single stage or turret presses that don't have enough chamfer to work on a progressive.

 

[Walkalong]

I wonder if you are getting the shell plate installed just right. The hub can sometimes bind when tightening the bolt. I always pull the hub up with the bolt so it is against the under part of the shell plate. That insures it gets pulled up all the way and does not bind. I have no problems with .38 Spl/.357 Mag.

There is an Excel file in this post that shows the relationship between the parts.

 

[Lucas McDennis]

Thanks all for your inputs. You gave me enough insight that I figured out what was happening, and a second call to Hornady (Lonnie this time) led to an easy fix. Apparently this is a common problem, especially for tall skinny cases like .357 mag. In fact, I'm willing the bet .357 mag is the worst case, especially since the #6 shell plate is on the loose side for .357 (it also fits 7.62x39R; other manufacturers specify different shellplates/holders for each).

There's clearance between the shell plate and the subplate (thanks Blue68f100, this was the clue that led me to figure out what was going on) and some of you thought I didn't have the retaining screw tight enough (it was tight the entire time though). On my press, the clearance is 0.01" at position 1 (de-cap/size), and 0.006" and position 4. The 0.01" is on the large side of the spec (Lonnie told me so), but is considered within tolerance. This clearance is reduced once a shell enters a die, because the spring loaded balls on the bottom of the shellplate are pushed in. But before the case mouth enters the die, the clearance is so much that the case can rock; it's not held snug by the shellplate until the balls get pressed in, and maybe not even then. Before a case enters a die, the tension on the retaining spring is tilting the base of the shell inward, and the mouth of the shell outward. Some dies will be more forgiving than others, but even the Hornady powder measure is sensitive to this misalignment (the Lee is not).

The fix is to stretch the retaining spring, taking care not to stretch the part where the two ends are fastened together with an internal pin. The reduced spring tension tilts the brass less, and all is well.

As for performance of the Hornady powder measure itself, enough people here and elsewhere have noted that it does not meter Trail Boss well, and the rifle rotor is probably better for this powder, but still not great. I can simply use my Lee powder measure for TB, and that is good to +/- 0.1 gr, which is close enough for cowboy work.

Oh, and I do use an aquarium pump to lightly vibrate my powder measures while they're in use. My listings tend to be way too long even without including details like that.

Edit: Just noted Walkalong's post of 11:35 AM Pacific Time (I'm in Peoples Republik of California). My hub is jammed tight, and does not move up or down. That could be the true root cause of my problem, and stretching the retaining spring may just be a band-aid solution to mask the symptom.
End Edit

Thanks again you guys. Every loading problem I've had so far has been solved here. Either somebody else has covered it already, or I ask a question and get the answers, or at least enough clues to find the answer.

 

[Master Blaster]

My guess is that if you were having those problems it was either YOU or you just got a bad measure. I know several competitors that took the dillon measure off of their 650 and replaced it with a hornady. The hornady measure is a good one.

Its fine for large volume charges, it just doesnt like the powders I use. I like them so I'm using the Dillon which is spot on with the powders listed.

 

[Waldog]

My LNL powder measure is +/- .01gr with any pistol powder I have used, i.e., W-231, Unique, Bullseye, AutoComp, HS-6 PowerPistol, WSF, UnivClays, and TightGroup. And, that is with charges as low as 3.5gr of 231. (Haven't used TrailBoss)
It's an excellent powder measure!

 

[Lucas McDennis]

I haven't had a lot of experience with the Hornady yet, but I had splendid results with a heavy charge of IMR 4227, acceptable results with a moderate charge of Tightgroup, but Trail Boss is different. It's very bulky, and donut shaped. Those who've tried it all seem to agree that, at least with a light charge in the range of 4 grains or less, the Hornady is VERY inconsistent. If somebody has a solution, I'm all eye-balls.

 

[realbuffdriver]

Lucas, darned if I wasn't going to suggest just what you found works! I had almost exactly the same problem when loading 38 Special on my LnL. I've purchase a few extra springs and keep one that is stretched sufficiently to work perfectly with 38 Special. I use a standard unstretched spring on everything else.

Glad you found the problem and that Hornady tech support is pointing people in the right direction on this. They were helpful to me, but it took quite a bit longer to arrive at the solution.

Regards,

RealBuffDriver

 

[Lucas McDennis]

Pleased to hear that, Realbuffdriver. I learned a little more this afternoon and evening though. The stretched spring is indeed somewhat of a band-aid. Blue68f100 brought clearance between shell-plate and sub-plate to my attention, and brought my awareness to the fact that the retainer spring was cocking the rims inward, and mouths outward (I'm somewhat mechanically inclined, but not very much so). Lonnie at Hornady told me to stretch the spring, and damned if that didn't solve the problem. Or at least apply a band-aid to it. Then Walkalong brought up that business about snugging up to the drive-hub, and how the drive-hub can bind, so I peeled the onion a little deeper.

Sure enough, my drive hub was sitting a bit proud of the sub-plate, but it had no play in it at all. "Bound up" as Walkalong says. So I proceeded to remove the drive hub. Took a few swear words, because it didn't want to come off the drive-shaft, but a long bolt through the central hole on the press' tool head let me use the ram to force it off on the down-stroke. Talking with Shannon at Hornady (thanks Shannon!) let me know it should be an easy slip fit, not a tight interference fit like it was.

So I set to work gently opening up the inside of the drive hub, where it fits onto the drive-shaft (actually only used lapping compound on a dremel felt wheel). I got it plenty loose enough, but it seems there was still interference between the little slot on the drive hub, and the pin that the slot fits over on the drive shaft. Not being very mechanically inclined, I couldn't figure out how to open the slot on the drive hub, though I could have filed away at the pin on the drive shaft. But to my way of thinking, it would be harder to replace the locating pin than it would to just get a new drive hub, so I didn't want to file on that pin. Yet I did manage to force the drive hub on far enough (heaven help whoever has to remove it the next time!) so that the drive hub is no longer standing proud of the sub-plate. Thus, the gap between the shell-plate and sub-plate is reduced by 0.003". That's not a lot, but seems to be enough to allow MOST .357 cases to line up properly with my Lee sizing die, and perhaps another brand of die would be more forgiving still.

At this point, I can ALMOST process .357 mag cases smoothly using a standard retainer spring. I wonder if a dedicated shellplate (rather than sharing #6 with 7.62x39R) might not solve the problem entirely? As for me, I will either work with a slightly stretched spring, or find a more forgiving sizing die. For my purposes, I consider my problems solved.

Thanks all once again for your help.

And as many others have done, I'll express my gratitude for Hornady's excellent customer support.

 

[realbuffdriver]

Very interesting observations. First, I agree that a dedicated shellplate, like the one Hornady produced for 45ACP, would solve this problem. The nature of the rimmed cartride for 38/357 and the way the case retainer spring rides over the rim just makes it very intolerant of any vertical play in these cases.

I wasn't able to measure the clearance of my shellplate, as my thinnest feeler gauge is .015. The center spindle of my press is slightly lower than the subplate, so that's not creating excess clearance. And stretching the spring does improve the situation.

So I guess I will live with the band-aid until such time as Hornady issues a better shellplate for 38 Special.

 

[Walkalong]

I believe it is the hub, and not the shell plate. My #6 shell plate works like a champ. I break out a new spring every once in a while as they tend to get a little bad spots in them. Never had to stretch one, and the buggered up springs work as well. After they get 5 or 6 kinks in them I scrap them. I put a couple of them in the "spring bin" in the shed. Parts of them might come in handy some day, ya never know.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=154355&d=1323361006

When looking at the diagram I linked to, remember that the hub is a slip fit, and is free to move up and down on the drive shaft.

The only other thing to consider is that in the buying rush after the election, all the reloading companies were struggling to keep up with demand. Hornady let some warped shell plates get out. Make sure your plate is flat, and not curved. My .22 Hornet E-Zject plate sure was.

 

[Blue68f100]

I load for the 38/357 and do not have the problem you are having. I did end up with a few warped shell plates when I converted over to the ezeject system. Hornady replaced them with new ones. I have not looked at the inner shaft/hub to know if a shim can be added at the bottom, to shift the shell plate closer to the base. It may need to be cut back instead of adding a shim depending on how all the parts work together. At least you have a solution that works. Once you get everything loaded up you can dig into it further for a more perminate solution.

Be safe and enjoy the LNL....