Professional training (like frontsight)

[sprice]

Have any of you gone to any firearm training classes? What do you think of Frontsight? If you've gone to some classes, what was the class(s), where'd you go, was it worth it, and how much did it cost? I'm also interested in what gun/holster or sling (or other gear for that matter) you brought.

 

[sprice]

so no one has ever had training classes before huh?

 

[Frank Ettin]

I've done a number of classes, including a couple (handgun and rifle) at Gunsite (http://www.gunsite.com/), a class with Massad Ayoob (http://massadayoobgroup.com/ ), and with Louis Awerbuck (http://www.yfainc.com/, see also http://ezine.m1911.org/awerback.htm).

I've never been to Frontsight, but I've heard they provide good training. I prefer Gunsite myself, because I think Prescott, Arizona is a nicer place to be than Pahrump, Nevada; but that's just a matter of personal taste.

I think professional training is a great idea, and I strongly recommend it.

 

[MinnMooney]

I'd love to go both for personal protection ideas and for the legal aspects in case I'd ever have to use my weapon in self defense.

The problem is - expense. $3000 for ONE DAY! (NOT incl. travel, food or lodging!)

The costs are prohibative for us average Joes. I used to get "1/2 price offers for a limited number of openings" but even that was way out of my price range. I live 1000+ miles from either of those two training facilities and that adds a huge extra burdon of travel, quarters & food.

I've checked on "traveling schools" but that's hit & miss plus I've never heard of some of the people who do the training. I'm always looking though.

 

[Quiet]

If you check the auction sites (ebay, etc.) you can find Front Sight Training certificates for around $100-200. The certificate will allow you to take their 2 day or 4 day course. So, if you want to check it out, go that route to pay for the class.

 

[EddieNFL]

The problem is - expense.

Check into smaller schools closer to home. Investigate them throughly and see if any meet your needs. There are some real morons advertising, but some worthwhile ones, as well.

 

[mgkdrgn]

I've been to Frontsight ... and their training is top notch.

 

[nerfsrule2]

If you check the auction sites (ebay, etc.) you can find Front Sight Training certificates for around $100-200. The certificate will allow you to take their 2 day or 4 day course. So, if you want to check it out, go that route to pay for the class.

...Front Sight has lifetime memberships and in that package they have coupons for reduced rate classes..

 

[mljdeckard]

$3000 a day? Are they using gold-cast bullets?

IIRC, a weeklong course at Thunder Ranch is less than $1500. At that particular site, you provide your own (lead-free, frangible) ammo.

It's on my list of things to do when I have the time and cash.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Yup, I'd say $3,000 for a day is way overstating things. Course fees seem to run from about $800 to $1,500 for a five day class. You have to add the cost of 500 to 1,000 rounds of ammunition to that.

Of course there's the cost of travel, food and lodging; but you can have some control over that. I have to admit that I fortunate enough to be able to be somewhat extravagant in that department, and I've reached an age at which I enjoy my creature comforts. I also then to add an extra week or a little more for travel and see and enjoy some of the country.

Of course, as mentioned, you can get some good deals on Frontsight classes, and I think you can keep other expenses there under control -- at least if you stay away from the casinos.

 

[smince]

www.suarezinternational.com

Most of their classes are in the $400 range for a weekend. There are instructors pretty well scattered around the country, and they travel as well.

I've taken Extreme Close-Range Gunfighting, 0-5Ft Gunfighting, and the AK47 Armorer Course, and (through an S.I. instructor) an AMOK!/Tom Sotis class on Accessing You Weapon Under Attack.

The link below will take you to a course schedule:
http://www.suarezinternational.com/tech.html

I highly recommend them.

 

[EvanWilliams]

I have been fortunate to usually pay zero (unless you count a bottle of Chivas Regal or Forty Creek). My pal was 11Bravo in Vietnam and was an officer in a Reserve SF unit in Miami. Nothing like someone who has actually been in combat and who has also used a gun in self defense as a civilian. He has done both and made mistakes in both. I have benefitted from his mistakes and successes.
My point is that there may be good, free help close to home. Are you friends with any vets or police officers? They can be a great source of knowledge and outstanding range buddies.

 

[mljdeckard]

Evan, a lot of us maxed out that kind of help a long time ago, from friends who did it a lot more recently than Vietnam.

The advantages of these kinds of schools is, they point out how police, military, and armed civilians have different priorities and obligations in combat. What an 11B is trained to do doesn't necessarily match what a civilian in a defensive situation needs to do. These are whole new schools of thought and operation. For an example, read "The Book of Two Guns" by Tiger McKee. He's never been a cop or military, but he has put a lot of study into how any man or woman must think and act to survive.

 

[gym]

I'm sorry I am all for training, but there is a limit. Some of the stuff is over the top unless you are planning on becoming a super spy of some sort. After being around guns and people who tried to kill me decades ago, It seems that unless you practice the kind of precision shooting daily, the basic combat course is sufficient for most folks. Maybe a brush up once a year, but I don't think most guys need to train to be an 11B. Unless you plan on working as a merc or hired gun. If that's your field of employment then its fine, but I don't think it's really going to do much in the parking of the local walmart, or if someone breaks into your home.

 

[Frank Ettin]

And while a helpful friend who knows his stuff can be helpful, there are good reasons to get training from people who are in the business of training people.

[1] The top trainers know and work with other trainers. This increases their knowledge base and resources. They not only learn from their own experiences, but also from the experiences of the other professional they work with.

[2] By training a lot of different people they get a lot of experience teaching different people and dealing with different training issues.

 

[Frank Ettin]

I'm sorry I am all for training, but there is a limit. Some of the stuff is over the top unless you are planning on becoming a super spy of some sort. ...I don't think it's really going to do much in the parking of the local walmart, or if someone breaks into your home.

On one hand I'm not going to be joining any sort of a dynamic entry team. On the other hand, since I can't know ahead of time exactly how my particular bad event will unfold, if I ever have one, I can't know how good I'm going to need to be. And while luck always figures into things to some extent, the better prepared I am, the luckier I'm likely to be.

None of the training I've had involved any "secrets of the ninja" type stuff. It was all pretty basic. It's all about the fundamentals and being able to do them well, and on demand. And it's about regular practice.

 

[EvanWilliams]

If you have truly maxed out that help then by all means seek professional training.
For the regular CCW carrier, in my opinion, the most important training is mental discipline in not drawing the weapon and not shooting. Not trying to "clear your house" when a 911 call will solve it. Not deciding to stop a robbery when a bad guy is walking out with the money and no one has been harmed. Decision making and avoiding trouble is the answer.
That said, I have paid for training for my wife (she learns better then when I teach her) and I plan to get some training myself.

 

[TexasRifleman]

m sorry I am all for training, but there is a limit. Some of the stuff is over the top unless you are planning on becoming a super spy of some sort. ...I don't think it's really going to do much in the parking of the local walmart, or if someone breaks into your home.

But you just don't ever know what kind of situation you might find yourself in, and any trigger time in front of an experienced instructor is valuable even if the specific tactics taught never come into use in your daily life.

And frankly some of the training classes are simply fun. No I'm not likely to ever be in 2 man carbine team in combat at night, but I took a class on it and guess what

a) it was fun
b) I got to see how my equipment held up under more extreme than normal use
c) I learned a little along the way about my shooting
d) I learned more about what I am and am not capable of doing.

I would say those are pretty good results for a training class and well worth it to me.

 

[mljdeckard]

There is no such thing as 'too much training'. If Massad Ayoob takes a week off every year to train, you need it too. Shooting is a perishable skill. When the time comes to USE it, there is no one on this planet who will ever think they were 'overtrained'.

 

[gym]

That's exactly what I was saying, unless you practice at that high level consistently, skills fade fast. Most folks don't have the time or the money to run through the drills necessary to stay sharp enough to use what they were taught unless they are actively engaged, like a swat officer, or Special Forces type op.
The defensive shooter who carries all the time should know how to respond to a threat, but normally has a job and family to occupy their time, and can't go on training exercises every week or two. I think the OP was interested in a more realistic approach, unless I misread. For those who have the time and money to do so, that's their business, same as folks who fly planes or race sailboats. Chances are in this economy there is less disposable income to do such things. Much or the gun culture is romanticized by TV and movies. In real life it's a matter of being able to respond to some threat that you probably never imagined when training. Or if you did it didn't look the same and you didn't know it was going to happen the way it did or when it did.
Decision making can be enhanced but some folks just act faster than others, and you can't make someone smart or more aware if they aren't capable. Reaction time may be improved, but not to a huge degree, that's why some folks are professionals and some are amateurs in sports. The amateur can go to all the training camps out there but he will never have the natural ability that the professional had without trying nearly as hard. He will get better at some things, and maybe that is enough.
There are a lot of folks making a lot of money from this sport now, some good some not so much. I have the upmost respect for Mr Ayoob, and have said he is tops many times here, but I can't fight like Bruce Lee, nor cook like Emerald Legassi, either so trying to emulate people who do these things as their lifes work is just silly at best. You think Obama thinks he is overtrained?

 

[Frank Ettin]

...unless you practice at that high level consistently, skills fade fast. Most folks don't have the time or the money to run through the drills necessary to stay sharp enough to use what they were taught ...Decision making can be enhanced but some folks just act faster than others, and you can't make someone smart or more aware if they aren't capable. ...The amateur can go to all the training camps out there but he will never have the natural ability that the professional had without trying nearly as hard....I can't fight like Bruce Lee, nor cook like Emerald Legassi, either so trying to emulate people who do these things as their lifes work is just silly at best....

I'm really not at all sure what you're trying to say. Does not being able to reach the skill level of a Navy SEAL mean that one shouldn't train or try to improve himself to the extent he has the capacity to do so?

Each of us is free to train and practice as much or as little as he wants. Each of us is free to become as skillful and proficient as his talent and willingness to invest time and money in the effort will permit.

So it is up to each of us to decide for himself how much training and practice he will get. And the good news is that probably the vast majority of us will live out our lives without ever having to put our skills to the test.

But on the other hand, if one is ever confronted with an emergency, he will have to deal with it using whatever skills and proficiency he has at that time. And no one can know ahead of time how good will be good enough.

 

[smince]

That's exactly what I was saying, unless you practice at that high level consistently, skills fade fast. Most folks don't have the time or the money to run through the drills necessary to stay sharp enough to use what they were taught unless they are actively engaged, like a swat officer, or Special Forces type op...The defensive shooter who carries all the time should know how to respond to a threat, but normally has a job and family to occupy their time, and can't go on training exercises every week or two...For those who have the time and money to do so, that's their business, same as folks who fly planes or race sailboats. Chances are in this economy there is less disposable income to do such things.

The benefit of training with a qualified instructor: Once you know what to work on, your practice sessions become much more efficient and effective, which will save you a ton of money on ammo, travel expense, range fees, and time. They can guide you toward gear that works or doesn't work, so you may not end up with the proverbial 'drawer full of holsters' that failed to live up to the advertising hype.

It sounds 'cliche' but you can't afford not to train. Most people that actually “train” understand the value of what they have received.

There are a lot of folks making a lot of money from this sport now.

There is a major problem right there: you believe self-defense training to be some sort of 'sport'

 

[GunsAmerica Fan]

I think they post those rates for perceived value. So that when you can go for $1000 or so a week you feel like you got a deal. Training like that is like inspirational speakers. When you leave you feel great, but unless you apply it right away and keep up on it, the stuff you learned fades away.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...The benefit of training with a qualified instructor: Once you know what to work on, your practice sessions become much more efficient and effective, which will save you a ton of money on ammo, travel expense, range fees, and time. They can guide you toward gear that works or doesn't work, so you may not end up with the proverbial 'drawer full of holsters' that failed to live up to the advertising hype...

A very good point. Among other things, training teaches you what to practice. Practice makes permanent, so if you're practicing the wrong things or practicing poorly, you're just ingraining bad habits.

...Most people that actually “train” understand the value of what they have received...

It does seem that most of the negativism about training comes from folks who haven't had training. Most folks who have been to school recommend it to others.

 

[mljdeckard]

I have no idea what comparison you are trying to draw with Obama.

Everyone who carries should commit to ongoing training. A good instructor will give you skills to practice on your own. EVERYONE who carries can spend a hundred rounds every month or two practicing malfunction drills, emergency reloads, one-handed operation, etc.