lightman
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I have been using Bergers VLD hunting bullets lately. Mostly in 308 and 300WSM. Shoots like a target bullet and preforms like a hunting bullet.
Projectile Recommendations for 30-06 Long-ish range Hunting
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I'm not sure if Varminterror's post was directed at me or not since he didn't quote the post he was responding to. The spirit of my post was exactly what LNK states in the quote above. I haven't done it but I can look at the data and appreciate the difficulty of it. I realize that there is little margin for error at that distance and I know that it would take me years of practice to have a hope of having good odds of making a clean kill at 800 yards.
There is a thread ongoing in the rifle forum about the poor shooting ability of the "average" shooter at a rifle range. That leads me to believe that the vast majority of hunters shouldn't be taking shots at game animals at 800 yards. I believe there are some who are capable, but probably not many. I don't know the OP and don't want to insult him, but if I had to guess, he is not in the very small group of hunters that should be taking such a shot. My assumption, which of course could be wrong, is that the kind of expert marksman and hunter that can make such a shot would not need to ask us what projectile to use.
How many did he miss or wound before and after taking that one? This is the hunting equivalent of posting a target with a small group on it. Maybe it reflects day in, day out consistent performance. Maybe it doesn't.
Varminterror
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CryptKeeper5
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IDK...I grew up hunting them north of Cheyenne and never had to take a shot over about 450 yards with either my .243 or my .280Rem. I COULD have taken longer but never needed to. Then again the ranch we usually hunted at was only 30 mi north so it's a bit different if you're a non resident on a timeframe. Yeah, the "gully goats" are pretty small in comparison to other game...and have great eyesight! Since we also occasionally hunted around the Minute Man missile silos, the animals were used to people always working on fences. You could literally glass a herd, bang on a fence for 5 min, get into the truck, drive up the line a hundred yards, bang on the fence again(with the hammer we brought just for this occasion), and they'd pay no attention. Get out and start walking and they'd be "gone in six(ty) seconds!lol!
JFrank
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CryptKeeper5
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This is true. Unfortunately many seem to greatly exaggerate their limitations either real or imagined...and it's led to many animals being wounded. So long as you're realistic that's one thing but dialing up a CDS system on a scope then sending rounds down range expecting the work to be done can wind up in major disappointment...and possibly a LONG night of tracking.
Random 8
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I said my piece and it's worth exactly what you paid for it. Some will value it based on logic and my experience, some will not. Take it under advisement and make your own decisions, I'm not arguing with cognitive dissonance.
Roverguy
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A number of folks I know up Gillette way road hunt them. Not shooting from vehicles; stalking them from vehicles, hopping out, setting up and taking shots at 250 to 300 yards in the main.
And we should remember that President Roosevelt thought the 30-30 was “wizard” for shooting antelope at long range!
lordpaxman
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Back to the topic at hand…
Berger has three different hunting bullets, VLD hunting, classic hunter hybrid, and elite hunter. It appears the elite hunter has options for really heavy bullets for caliber available, but there’s not a consistent weight across their three lines.
Any opinions of Hornady ELDx vs Bergers hunting bullets?
Berger has three different hunting bullets, VLD hunting, classic hunter hybrid, and elite hunter. It appears the elite hunter has options for really heavy bullets for caliber available, but there’s not a consistent weight across their three lines.
Any opinions of Hornady ELDx vs Bergers hunting bullets?
bluejay75
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Bergers will fly better. Both will leave you discarding a lot of meat on a shoulder shot.
I totally agree with @wombat13 analysis and opinion, and I am of the opinion that these super long range distances are unethical.
I don't know how guys are getting 3000 fps with 165's or 3100 fps with 150's without popping primers.
This rifle has a 26 inch barrel
Shot well with 150's going 2884 fps
took that load to CMP Talladega and it did this to the breech face
I was able to keep it in the ten ring at distance. What are not shown are the sighting shots to get there.
One other point that is never discussed, is bullet stability. We all read some inprint gunwriters article on the wonderful, 1000 to 1500 yard ballistics on the latest and greatest, and then the guy shoots five shots at 100 yards. When does the shill shoot 1500 yards? Never.
I am going to claim, based on my experience, that most commercial bullets will group out to 300 yards, and that is because the bullet companies have 300 yard indoor ranges. Past that, you don't know what your bullet is doing.
And example I ran into
more or less held the ten ring at 300 yards
fell apart at 600 yards
This load was stable out to 300 yards. At 600 yards it was not, but I don't have the picture of the 600 yard group, because I thought my rifle or scope broke.
This was the next load at 300 yards, I decided to blast up the ammunition before going home with a "broke" rifle or scope, and this load grouped well at 200, and at 300 yards. Just half a grain more powder
and it grouped at 600 yards
I was flummoxed, so to say, as bullet stability is not discussed at all in the literature. But it is real. Not all bullets make the transition from super sonic to sub sonic without tumbling. And you don't know if your bullets will tumble at distance till you shoot them at distance.
When I talked to Sierra about the velocity needed to push 190's in a 308 Win, I was told this velocity would keep them above 1200 fps at 600 yards, and the bullets would group.
Grouped well at 300 yards
unstable at 600 yards.
Industry is not going to tell you their bullets tumble at distance based on initial velocity, outside temperature, or barometric pressure. So until you shoot your bullets at distance, don't assume they are stable at distance.
I don't know how guys are getting 3000 fps with 165's or 3100 fps with 150's without popping primers.
This rifle has a 26 inch barrel
Shot well with 150's going 2884 fps
took that load to CMP Talladega and it did this to the breech face
I was able to keep it in the ten ring at distance. What are not shown are the sighting shots to get there.
One other point that is never discussed, is bullet stability. We all read some inprint gunwriters article on the wonderful, 1000 to 1500 yard ballistics on the latest and greatest, and then the guy shoots five shots at 100 yards. When does the shill shoot 1500 yards? Never.
I am going to claim, based on my experience, that most commercial bullets will group out to 300 yards, and that is because the bullet companies have 300 yard indoor ranges. Past that, you don't know what your bullet is doing.
And example I ran into
more or less held the ten ring at 300 yards
fell apart at 600 yards
This load was stable out to 300 yards. At 600 yards it was not, but I don't have the picture of the 600 yard group, because I thought my rifle or scope broke.
This was the next load at 300 yards, I decided to blast up the ammunition before going home with a "broke" rifle or scope, and this load grouped well at 200, and at 300 yards. Just half a grain more powder
and it grouped at 600 yards
I was flummoxed, so to say, as bullet stability is not discussed at all in the literature. But it is real. Not all bullets make the transition from super sonic to sub sonic without tumbling. And you don't know if your bullets will tumble at distance till you shoot them at distance.
When I talked to Sierra about the velocity needed to push 190's in a 308 Win, I was told this velocity would keep them above 1200 fps at 600 yards, and the bullets would group.
Grouped well at 300 yards
unstable at 600 yards.
Industry is not going to tell you their bullets tumble at distance based on initial velocity, outside temperature, or barometric pressure. So until you shoot your bullets at distance, don't assume they are stable at distance.
Be that as it may, the OP “liked” my posts that offend you so much. So who is projecting what here? Calls to mind a bit of Shakespeare “Methinks [he] doth protest too much.”
Hugger-4641
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Probably has something to do with your rifle. I can and have pushed 165 to 3000+ in either of my 30-06 with no problems, but I don't like staying up there, so I'm usually looking for 2800 or so.
Well... I've got a Howa .30-06 that will group under 1/2" with Barnes 168 TSX bullets (and an EC Tuner Brake). That's assuming I do my part in reloading and shooting.
Barnes says the TSX needs 1500 FPS to properly expand. At 600 yards, my bullet is traveling at 1600 FPS... so for expansion... that's pushing its range. Realistically, I'm beyond full expansion.
The question is, how far can I (AND YOU) consistently hit a paper plate?
At 600 yards a 5 mph crosswind will move the bullet a foot. Which is a long way from the chest cavity of a whitetail. And of course a 5 mph wind is nothing.
I will not shoot at an animal beyond 400 and that's only if I have a perfect bench-like rest and it's dead calm. Part of hunting is stalking to get within an ethical shooting distance.
Barnes says the TSX needs 1500 FPS to properly expand. At 600 yards, my bullet is traveling at 1600 FPS... so for expansion... that's pushing its range. Realistically, I'm beyond full expansion.
The question is, how far can I (AND YOU) consistently hit a paper plate?
At 600 yards a 5 mph crosswind will move the bullet a foot. Which is a long way from the chest cavity of a whitetail. And of course a 5 mph wind is nothing.
I will not shoot at an animal beyond 400 and that's only if I have a perfect bench-like rest and it's dead calm. Part of hunting is stalking to get within an ethical shooting distance.
Varminterror
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Why do you assume demonstrated performance beyond your skill the best of an inconsistent distribution, or dumb luck? Why do you assume that others well versed in the skill would not be aware of the mathematical “challenges” you’ve presented in this thread?
Have you considered the possibility other folks already know these things, already have developed these skills, and already have consistently demonstrated their ability?
I assume you drive a car frequently, but if a drag racer asked publicly which tires would be best for his sled, would you intervene to recommend against driving 300+ mph because the stopping distance would be proportionately and “excessively” longer than that of a passenger vehicle at 55mph?
Bud of mine uses Hornady SST's in his 308, but found the things would not upset through the rib cage. His deer would run off, and if it was dusk, he would find them next morning about 200 yards away, piled up. And eaten by coyotes. Since then he plants the bullets between the shoulder and the neck where there is more meat to up set the bullet, and is very happy with the bullet's performance.
Those who shoot those Hail Mary shots can only hope that the bullet hits a vital spot. I am 100% certain that at long range, they have had a lot of animals run off, and they can't tell the difference between one injured or not. Having gotten "lost" squirrel hunting in a heavily wooded and scrub brush area, I had to repeatably go back to where I took my shot, and attempt to find the tree, not more than 30 to 40 yards away, because moving around all the plant obstacles changed the terrain. Those who shoot over the horizon, I am very skeptical they can actually find the spot at which the animal ran from, to find a blood trail. And then, to find the animal, with blood trail or no blood trail.If they get there and find nothing, they probably assume they missed, when all they actually did was create a suffering death for an animal.
Even though I shot NRA highpower for decades, I never appreciated how unpredictable and uneven wind was until I shot Smallbore Prone. The furthest target is 100 yards away, though that 22 lr bullet floats like a spit wad. Shoot that game for a decade, every match you can, and you learn, wind is not uniform even on the little patch of land you are using. I can see dust devils at Ben Avery, the place is dusty so you see these things, but one of those things sure surprised me at a Tennessee range. A dust devil is a mean thing, suddenly your bullet goes right (for example), the wind flags all point right, and you think there has been a change up. Change ups happen all the time. So, put on full left windage, take a shot in the sighter, then go for the record bull. That is exactly the time the other side of that local tornado hits, and not only does the bullet go left due to the windage you added, it goes left due to the winds going left on the back side of the thing! I only saw the dust devil at the Tennessee range by backing my magnification down and determining there was a rotating ring in the grass! That ring moved, and it was not the only ring that day!
Air is full of bubbles, spiraling winds, rotating eddies, it is far from uniform. You get to learn range conditions, that wind comes down from the tree line, and then spirals in the middle of the range. One Georgia range, the bullet goes over a valley. Weird things happen in the valley. When I shot at Perry I often focused my scope on many parts of the range, lets say, at 200 yards the mirage was moving left to right, then at 400 yards, right to left, at 500 yards, what mirage? , etc. I saw the mid range flags at opposite sides pointing at each other. How can that be? Until you see this stuff, you assume that wind is nice and linear, all the way out, always moving same speed, same direction. Well, it does not.
One of the worst conditions for Smallbore Prone is when a front moves through. You can't see mirage in overcast, when the sun comes up, something weird happens to the wind, wind is moving all the time. It is very difficult and frustrating to shoot in these rapidly changing conditions as I don't see anything to indicate wind speed and direction. Those Hail Mary shooters are fortunate that they always shoot in a calm, or a vacuum.
.38 Special
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I would assume that by the time a fellow has the experience and skill to drive a 300+ mph car, he wouldn't need to ask for the public's advice regarding tires.
bluejay75
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Im with Wombat here… the LRX is down to 15-1600 but the standard TSX is 1800.
I’m using my phone, so researching is PITA at the moment. I did find out that the x-ring for the NRA 1000 yard target is 10”. So what percentage of the championship winner’s shots were Xs last year? If we looked at multiple years? And I believe that in those competitions the shooters are allowed sighting shots. Maybe there are even wind flags.
So here’s what I believe. The set of rifleman that can make an ethical one-shot kill on a game animal in field conditions at 800+ yards is very, very small. Since ethical is subjective I’ll make it more concrete. How many rifleman can hit the vital zone at 800+ yards on their first shot, 90% of the time or more?
So here’s what I believe. The set of rifleman that can make an ethical one-shot kill on a game animal in field conditions at 800+ yards is very, very small. Since ethical is subjective I’ll make it more concrete. How many rifleman can hit the vital zone at 800+ yards on their first shot, 90% of the time or more?
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Thanks. That’s the point I was trying to make earlier.
Juiceking
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Man o man not going to lie i had to read op post multiple times and still not sure if it's legit although i did get a good chuckle.
I have 3 model 70 in 30.06 and every big game animal ive taken has been with a 30.06 and all of my shots have been under 350 yrd. Stuff ive read says it was developed and tested to be effective up to 1000 yards. Which i totally believe is true.
Do i believe anyone who has posted comments here including the OP can drop a deer with one shot at 800-1000 yrds hahaha i do not. Could some of us shoot into a herd with multiple shots be able to hit one, yeah i think so. Recover it maybe, maybe not.
So back to OP "what projectiles for 30.06 at 50-800 yards" well at 50 yards i would say any projectile you can find for 30.06 will work just fine. As far as longer shot i see ppl suggesting bergers, Noslers, Hornady Vld. We're are you guys finding those for sale? Internet links would be helpful for OP. Ive looked locally for a month and all i could find is 165gr spitzer and hornady 178gr bthp. Top of the line bullets don't mean anything if you can't find them.
I did like the pronghorn pic but i don't buy he made that 1200 yd/ft shot with a 30.06 T/C.
Entertaining thread for sure though.
I have 3 model 70 in 30.06 and every big game animal ive taken has been with a 30.06 and all of my shots have been under 350 yrd. Stuff ive read says it was developed and tested to be effective up to 1000 yards. Which i totally believe is true.
Do i believe anyone who has posted comments here including the OP can drop a deer with one shot at 800-1000 yrds hahaha i do not. Could some of us shoot into a herd with multiple shots be able to hit one, yeah i think so. Recover it maybe, maybe not.So back to OP "what projectiles for 30.06 at 50-800 yards" well at 50 yards i would say any projectile you can find for 30.06 will work just fine. As far as longer shot i see ppl suggesting bergers, Noslers, Hornady Vld. We're are you guys finding those for sale? Internet links would be helpful for OP. Ive looked locally for a month and all i could find is 165gr spitzer and hornady 178gr bthp. Top of the line bullets don't mean anything if you can't find them.
I did like the pronghorn pic but i don't buy he made that 1200 yd/ft shot with a 30.06 T/C.
Entertaining thread for sure though.
JFrank
Member
Perhaps penetration is more important than expansion when long range hunting.
I have no idea what caliber he s shooting in that picture.
Probably not a 06 though
I have no idea what caliber he s shooting in that picture.
Probably not a 06 though
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