Proof of gun modifications used in court (found one!)

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jpIII

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Proof of gun modifications used in court (found one!)....false alarm

To all who wanted to see a court case where the state of the gun as far as modifications was presented as evidence, I give you People v Superior Court (Du)

court case link
Basically, what happened was Mrs. Du shot Latasha Harlins with a 38 S&W revolver. Part of Mrs. Du's defense claim was that she didn't know of the "hair trigger" the gun supposedly had.

The entire court case is long, so I'll post the relevant parts here.(Emphasis mine)

Here is what their supposed expert whitness said for the record. I am quite disappointed in their whitness.
David Butler, a Los Angeles Police Department ballistics expert, testified extensively about the gun, a Smith & Wesson .38-caliber revolver with a two-inch barrel. In summary, he testified that the gun had been altered crudely and that the trigger pull necessary to fire the gun had been drastically reduced. Also, both the locking mechanism of the hammer and the main spring tension screw of the gun had been altered so that the hammer could be released without putting much pressure on the trigger. In addition, the safety mechanism did not function properly.



The part of the court's opinion regarding this is here.
The court commented at sentencing that it did not "believe that Mrs. Du would be here today if the gun that she grabbed for protection had not been altered." The court elaborated: "This was a gun that had been stolen from the Du family and had been returned to them shortly before the shooting. The court has been presented with no evidence, and I do not believe that Mrs. Du knew that the gun had been altered in such a way as to ... make it an automatic weapon with a hairpin trigger. Ordinarily a .38 revolver is one of the safest guns in the world. Ordinarily, a woman Mrs. Du's size would have to decide consciously to pull the trigger and exert considerable strength to do so, but that was not true of the gun used to shoot Latasha Harlins. I have serious questions in my mind whether this crime would have been committed at all but for the altered gun."

Ultimately she got probation for her acts....

Yes this is an older court case, but it was one we are currently studying.
 
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***, even with faulty trigger work, if you held the trigger down on a S&W revolver it wouldn't be a machine pistol.

You have to pull the trigger to make the cylinder turn and make the hammer go back after each shot. :confused:

Was she charged with unlawful possession of a machinegun too? The bold part you highlighted is absurd.
 
That, and obviously their EXPERT witness didn't know that S&W revolvers don't have SAFETIES!!!

By the way, when did S&W come up with their version of the ILS (integrated locking system)?

I know it isn't a true safety, just wondering... either way, this particular gun was bought in the 80's according to the case. I'm positive the ILS wasn't around then, so this couldn't have been what he was referencing..

from the case..
Defendant's husband testified that he had purchased the .38-caliber handgun from a friend in 1981 for self-protection.

No, no machine gun charges (or any gun charges for that matter) were pressed. Only the voluntary manslaughter charge was at issue.
 
Wait a second, does that person not understand how revolvers work? No matter how little trigger pressure the hammer requires to release, nothing will perform the work to rotate the cylinder and retract the hammer.

And these are firearms experts working for the ATF? Scary.
 
This is the problem when "non-gun people" attempt to talk or write about guns. They use words that mean one thing in the civilian world and something else entirely in the gun world (or to the ATF).

Reading that quote, I don't think they meant she "turned the revolver into a machine gun." They meant the modifications "made it automatic" in the sense that it was "no longer manually operated." In other words, you barely thought about shooting it and it went off. It was "automatic."

I think even your average citizen realizes that you can't turn a revolver into a machine gun!

Gregg
 
The Mateba Model 6 Unica is a semi-automatic revolver. The upper portion of the frame recoils to rotate the cylinder and cock the hammer. I suppose it might be possible to turn that revolver into an automatic, but that's not what we're talking about here.

If that was an expert, what are most of us?
 
If the quoted text was part of a transcription, that would help explain the errors. Transcriptions frequently read like the closed captioning on a live news program on TV.
 
It's not relevent to the claims of gun modification leading to criminal charges.

The modification of the gun actually helped her as it was a key to her getting probation which she would not normally have been a candidate for as she used a firearm.

It was determined to be a bad shoot and she got popped for voluntary manslaughter.

She had a good lawyer that helped get her off light.

We're still waiting for the example.
 
Nope, not right.

jpIII, the argument was never that gun modifications would not be used in court. All factors of a firearm used in the commission of a crime certainly may come into use and presented during a court case. The argument was that gun modifications won't negate a person's right to self defense. The continual claim has been that you don't want to use a modified gun or handloaded ammo because that could be used against you, as if somehow such factors therefore make you a premeditated murderer who was just trying to engage in a gunfight or you otherwise would not have a modified gun and/or special handload ammo. Heaven forbid you use your race gun and handloaded race ammo in self defense because it will be said that you have a souped up killing machine with hyperlethal ammo. The implication was that use of such items would somehow cause a self defense case to then go south, resulting in a conviction against the shooter who was acting in self defense. While Ayoob and others have made this claim many times (Ayoobian myth), it has never been shown to be true. Gun modifications and handloads will not negate the right of self defense.

In this case, we are not even talking about a person who is claiming a right to self defense.

As noted, the gun expert doesn't seem to be much of an expert with the testimony given. The whole issue of a safety and being automatic on the revolver was interesting. I personally have no knowledge of a revolver that can go off by itself WITHOUT the hammer first being cocked in some manner. It does not matter how light the trigger pull is if the hammer isn't cocked on a revolver.

David Butler, a Los Angeles Police Department ballistics expert, testified extensively about the gun, a Smith & Wesson .38-caliber revolver with a two-inch barrel. In summary, he testified that the gun had been altered crudely and that the trigger pull necessary to fire the gun had been drastically reduced. Also, both the locking mechanism of the hammer and the main spring tension screw of the gun had been altered so that the hammer could be released without putting much pressure on the trigger. In addition, the safety mechanism did not function properly.

After conclusion of the testimony at trial, the court granted a defense motion to dismiss the charge of first degree murder. The jury was instructed {Page 5 Cal.App.4th 828} on second degree murder, two theories of voluntary manslaughter (sudden quarrel or heat of passion [CALJIC Nos. 8.42, 8.43 and 8.44] and honest but unreasonable belief in self-defense [CALJIC No. 5.17]), and involuntary manslaughter.

So the initial charge was murder, but first degree murder was discussed and the jury instructed on other charges. Apparently, the gun modification issue was not an issue in the jury's decision. The defendent could be found guilty of voluntary manslaughter because the act was of a sudden quarrel or heat of passion (hence not premeditated) or that she acted in an unreasonable belief of self defense. Both these aspects show intent on behalf of the defendent. Had the trigger issue been salient and believed to have been the reason for the discharge, then it would have been involuntary manslaughter since the gun would have fired unintentionally.

So even here, the gun modification issue was brought out in the court case, but did not figure significantly in the final conviction. The jury apparently did not buy the notion that the gun could have just gone off on its own.

To provide further clarification here, anything relevant to the incident can be brought up in the case, but that does not mean that the information will necessarily determine or figure into the outcome. In the case, it was noted that the dead girl died with $2 in her hand. That aspect had nothing to do with the conviction, nor did her backpack, or the fact that the defendent had trouble extracting the gun from its holster. These are all aspects of the situation just like the gun being crudely and incorrectly modified, but they didn't figure into the conviction.
 
We're still waiting for the example.
Yup. Interesting case, but not relevant to the ongoing search for a case where someone involved in a good shoot was convicted of wrongdoing because they had a modified gun or used handloaded ammo or anything along those lines.

The 'example' would have to be an otherwise good shoot turned into a crime because of a modification.
 
.....that the gun had been altered in such a way as to ... make it an automatic weapon with a hairpin trigger. Ordinarily a .38 revolver is one of the safest guns in the world.....

Cool - Automatic .38 snub nose. I wonder if whoever modified that gun got a patent on it. :)
 
Wait a second, does that person not understand how revolvers work? No matter how little trigger pressure the hammer requires to release, nothing will perform the work to rotate the cylinder and retract the hammer.
That's what I was thinkin'...
 
Yup. Interesting case, but not relevant to the ongoing search for a case where someone involved in a good shoot was convicted of wrongdoing because they had a modified gun or used handloaded ammo or anything along those lines.

The 'example' would have to be an otherwise good shoot turned into a crime because of a modification.



I doubt there's been an example of firearms modifications being solely responsible for a conviction. What is harder to know or prove, is whether a jury has been swayed by evidence of gun modifications to make the gun "easier" to shoot.

This topic comes up often, with some very strong opinions. I don't think anyone can state categorically, that it will play no part in a district attorney's decision in whether to charge, or how to charge, or in a jury's decisions to convict.

I have seen it brought up in court, several times, usually by the defendant as an excuse to why the gun "just went off." I testified in one where a "firearms expert" testified that because of a trigger job done on a revolver, that the gun could have fired without the trigger being pulled. In this case the jury didn't buy it.

For me, although I don't think it's a major thing, I don't use a handgun for defense with a 2 LB trigger, both for practical and possible legal reasons.
 
I guess I'm SOL then if I get in a court case. Darn near all of my pistols have had one modification or another to them. If that don't get me then the reloaded personal protection ammo I'm carrying probably will.
 
Yeah, isn't this the Korean store owner who shoots the black teen in the back of the head for trying to get away with $2? Hardly a "gun modification led to conviction" case. It is more like "shooting an unarmed theif in your liquor mart in the back of the head as they are fleeing with $2 isn't a good self defense case" example to me.
 
A "hairpin" trigger, I thought it was a "hair" trigger. Is that some kind of regional thing? Just curious. I would think a Hairpin trigger would not break as easily as a Hair trigger (mostly because a hair is more easily broken then a hair).
Kj
 
While Ayoob and others have made this claim many times (Ayoobian myth)
The myth is something anti-Ayoob folks concocted out of something legitimate Ayoob said. I've talked to him about this more than once. Mas' point is not that modifications will negate your right to self-defense, it is that a creative lawyer may bring up modifications to make you look bad. He never said that it has happened; as someone who spends a lot of time in courtrooms, he's more surprised that it hasn't. He also adamantly states that it's not a big deal to worry about, just something to spend a few seconds on when making a choice.

The whole "Ayoobian Myth" is itself a myth in that he never made that point that strongly; it's just a misunderstanding people deliberately get themselves wrapped around because they want to make Mas look bad.
 
The myth is something anti-Ayoob folks concocted out of something legitimate Ayoob said. I've talked to him about this more than once. Mas' point is not that modifications will negate your right to self-defense, it is that a creative lawyer may bring up modifications to make you look bad. He never said that it has happened; as someone who spends a lot of time in courtrooms, he's more surprised that it hasn't. He also adamantly states that it's not a big deal to worry about, just something to spend a few seconds on when making a choice.

It is hardly an anti-Ayoob concoction out of a valid point made by Ayoob. Ayoob has never substantiated in print where such factors have caused a case to go south and so it really isn't a valid point. I would be a lot more impressed if he provided a series of examples for his warnings, but he doesn't.

Sure it isn't a big deal to worry about...after 20 something years of claiming it was with no supporting evidence, backtracking some is to be expected. I am surprised he hasn't done it sooner in print himself. From the Sept 2004 "Combat Handguns" article that notes the cops departmental choice of guns and ammo coming under fire in court with no success Ayoob noted, "Things like attacking the officer's gun or ammunition are the sort of things that are predictably used by lawyers who have nothing substantive."

The quote here is great. Basically, Ayoob is saying that his "valid" point isn't valid.

The bottom line comes down to whether you have the right to use lethal force or not. If you do, you can use a benchrest rifle with super duper velocity handload special ammo and shoot it via the 1/8 oz. trigger pull. Regardless of the creativity of the lawyer, said information doesn't change whether or not there was a valid justification for the use of lethal force.


This sort of reasoning goes for civilians as well. If that is all they have to attack, it isn't a legal point in a self defense shooting.
 
Random thought: Double Action revolvers do have a "safety mechanism" built in. Their trigger pulls tend to be heavy and long (as far as I'm told, at least and, at least in comparison to single-action guns) because they have to pull the hammer back and rotate the cylinder with the trigger pull; in addition, this could be considered a safety feature, because a gun with a heavy trigger would be less likely to discharge if the trigger were to snag on something, or if one's finger "slipped" or was negligently laid 'pon the trigger when some impetus made one clench, and all that jazz.

If someone horked your revolver, and performed some Po'-Boy Trigga-Jorb on it, and you got it back (and were either too inexperienced, uninterested, or naive[sp?] to test/practice/check it out), not knowing that the trigger pull was now much lighter, wouldn't the weapon be substantially less safe in your hands, because what you "know" about your gun is now out of date?

*shrug*
~Slam_Fire
 
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