Proposed ban on all Ivory sales

[rcmodel]

Heads up!

I have Ivory grips on handguns, Ivory beads on two shotguns, and a couple of knives with Ivory scales.

I bought a shoe box full of scrap ivory at an estate sale years ago for $10 bucks.
Some guy was making ivory cribbage boards and died before he used it all.

So I converted most of it into gun & knife stuff.
Still have a few scrapes left.

And I sure couldn't prove it is over 100 years old.
Pretty sure it isn't in fact, but it was too late to save the elephant by the time I stumbled across it.

http://www.nraila.org/news-issues/a...ic-sale-of-ivory-could-impact-gun-owners.aspx

rc

 

[hso]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/dougban...-ivory-rules-put-elephants-at-increased-risk/

The Forbes article as well as the Knife Rights alert on this points out the pitfalls of such a decision for owners of knives and guns (and other objects) made of elephant ivory or repurposed antique elephant ivory. Even if antique ivory is allowed, how do you prove it is antique? Even if humanely harvested Asian elephant ivory is used, how do you prove that?

http://www.kniferights.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=251&Itemid=1#ivory

 

[Sol]

Ivory can be dated, it's expensive.

Burden of proof rests on the state as far as I'm concerned.

I believe this stems from a sting/ raid at an NY jeweler where they found almost a ton of illegal ivory a few years back.

...better hide the pianos guys.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Just as long as we're clear that this isn't some hysterical back door Obama gun grab. Just don't even start that nonsense.

The general thinking is that possession of ivory as a desirable commodity encourages further poaching. Presumably, one can see the logic in that argument, from a market perspective. However, outright prohibition will likely have the same effect on demand as the war on drugs, ie. zero, or could make it worse, though market scarcity. The difference being what fun is ivory, if you can't display it in public?

The correct tactic is to make the ostentation of ivory as socially acceptable as the binding of literature in human skin. Which starts with education, and ends with those with antiquated views taking nature's course.

 

[silicosys4]

Mammoth ivory is nice.
Are factory ivory grips that are less that 100 years old to be assumed to have come from legal sources? So you could have a factory original, highly collectible gun from say, the 1930's, and not be able to sell it?

 

[jcwit]

Well the ban works pretty well with Eagle feathers.

 

[buckhorn_cortez]

Just as long as we're clear that this isn't some hysterical back door Obama gun grab. Just don't even start that nonsense.

Who, exactly, brought up that subject other than you?

 

[silicosys4]

Well the ban works pretty well with Eagle feathers.

I worked in a coastal community with an overabundance of Bald Eagles, there were shed feathers everywhere. Accidentally pick up a shed eagle feather while you are collecting shed gull feathers and you are in deep doodoo though.

This is just another case of attempted social conditioning....Ivory is baaaaad. Never mind that we have outlined very clearly the use of legally obtained or grandfathered ivory and that elephants are now protected by law.....That gorgeous presentation Colt with the Ivory grips? Baaaad. If you want to sell your investment, you'll have to replace the grips at your own cost, while devaluing the gun at the same time by taking its originality away.
Sure as heck is backdoor gun control...or at least an illicit attack.

I'm not an ivory guy, but nobody can deny that there is a large supply of pre ban ivory in this country, Hippo and warthog's are not endangered, and many legal items are made of ivory who's owners would be losing a sizeable investment value.

 

[vamo]

Quote:
Just as long as we're clear that this isn't some hysterical back door Obama gun grab. Just don't even start that nonsense.
Who, exactly, brought up that subject other than you?

Read the article, the NRA is spinning it like that. Which just weakens our position on both grandfathered ivory and gun rights in my opinion.

 

[Pizzapinochle]

"Why does this matter to every NRA member? This is another attempt by this anti-gun Administration to ban firearms based on cosmetics and would render many collections/firearms valueless. "

From the NRA link.

 

[hartcreek]

And what about indiginous peoples treaty right to produce cultural artifacts. Elephants are not the only source of ivory so we are going to have government peckerheads with the brains of a dog poop siezing items that are culturally significant.

 

[Pizzapinochle]

Uh, hart... Just how many indiginous people in the US have cultural artifacts that feature ivory?

 

[plmitch]

Some interesting ideas here.............

 

[barnbwt]

"I believe this stems from a sting/ raid at an NY jeweler where they found almost a ton of illegal ivory a few years back"

So why the rule change? They already nailed that guy!

It's not that the ban is an attempt at social engineering; rather, it's the result of social engineering, in which lawyers brought up stoned on Captain Planet think that criminalizing a profitable activity somehow makes it less so (hint, hint) and will reduce comsumption or production. Problem is, no one else will honor this ban, so the demand will still be present, only we won't be party to how the trade is conducted.

Wasn't it Kenya that legalized commercial ivory harvesting and found --surprise-- that suddenly everyone involved in the ivory trade magically had a vested interest in maintaining and growing the elephant populations? The longer you make the trade illegal, the less incentive there is for responsible management instead of a 'cut and run, make the money while you can' practice of reckless abandon.

TCB

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

The importation of Ivory has been illegal since the 1980's into the United States. Prior to that one needed a certificate from the game warden of the country of origin. Back in 1976one of our customers bought some huge tusks in Nigeria and had no paperwork. Customs seized the shipment at the port of entry, Port Canaveral pending receipt of the paperwork from the game warden of Nigeria. It never happened. You should have seen the look on the Port Directors face when he discovered the tusks had disappeared lol.

 

[MagnumDweeb]

Okay, to parse hairs here. Can we agree that Ivory has to be processed (used in some capacity and can't remain in its ready to me made into something state), within the next five years and that all remaining ivory has to be disposed of. Meaning if its already used for gun grips and knife handles, or jewelry or chess pieces, it's ok to sell. You can't sell an unused tusk though, unless you have turned it into a piece of furniture (loophole, slap some gold rings on it and call it a conversation piece, if someone turns it into something later who cares), or some already used piece (gun grips, knife handle, chess pieces, etc.).

This will grandfather gun grips and knife handles as well as jewelry and what have you.

As long as elephants remain on the endangered species list, I'm against the selling of ivory but if folks already have it here, legally, then give them five years to do what they may with it, and call it day. It's my personal choice to dislike the use and sale of ivory, but I'm against surprising folks who have the stuff legally, and five years is plenty of time to do what you may with it. I'm sure plenty of folks in 1986 would have loved to have had the notice to register machine guns for another five years before the registry was closed.

If I want the Ivory look I'll get some of those fake one out there (because a nickel plated 1911 with Ivory grips just look awesome, I'll admit it, I'm a fan, but I like elephants more).

 

[CLP]

Uh, hart... Just how many indiginous people in the US have cultural artifacts that feature ivory?

Just playing devil's advocate here...but I think the Inuits carve narwhal and walrus tusks. I think that's what he meant by "not the only source".

 

[goon]

Unless it's a global ban, what's the point?
Is there a huge demand for illegal elephant ivory among gun owners, or anyone else, in the U.S.?

Last I heard, the demand is mostly overseas in some Asian countries. And it's filled by poachers in very poor countries who don't have much to lose.

I also think elephants incredible animals and hate that they're killed for such a petty reason, especially for some status symbol in a foreign land. But my hatred of that doesn't stop it from happening. I'm wondering if legal harvesting of ivory isn't the better course. The more ivory you get on the market, the lower the price gets and the less profitable it is to traffic in it.
The less profit there is in it, the safer elephants are. And the safer elephants are, the happier I am.

Just playing devil's advocate here...but I think the Inuits carve narwhal and walrus tusks. I think that's what he meant by "not the only source".

You can also find mammoth ivory pretty much by luck in the North. It shows up on beaches, along river banks where ice carves things out during break up, and kind of just anywhere that a mammoth might have died and gotten frozen in ice, which is now thawing more and more due to climate change. I've seen mammoth tusks myself and even a small tusk can weigh a good 30-40 pounds and be three or four feet long.

Uh, hart... Just how many indiginous people in the US have cultural artifacts that feature ivory?

Alaska Natives - Inupiat, Tlingit, Yupik. I hesitate to answer the question because I'm so not qualified. I'm no expert, but I've seen some of their artwork.

 

[hartcreek]

Plenty of if you live where I do in Washington all I would have to do is drive to Seattle and choose as it comes from walrus, pig, elk, sperm whale, and narwhal around here as well as mamoth.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

OK, a ban on hunting elephants for ivory is one thing, but a ban on existing finished products made from it is ridiculous. That ship has sailed, as presumably the elephant has already been killed.

 

[bottom shelf]

The article ends with this:

Your actions today may determine if these firearms that contain ivory will be banned.

<Sigh> This type of spin and misinformation makes it more difficult to really feel good about being behind the NRA 100%. According to the rest of the article, there is no danger of these firearms being banned, as in illegal to possess. Only their trade will be banned. They would give me a stronger argument for their defense if they wouldn't do that.

 

[Queen_of_Thunder]

One of the problems is when LE finds a stash of illegal ivory they hold it for awhile then destroy it. Instead they should flood the maket with this recovered ivory which will drive its demand and cost down thereby reducing the incentive for poachers. Do they do this, no. They destroy it thereby increasing demand and the economic incentive to poach it. Just doesn't make sense.

 

[hso]

The topic is only elephant ivory.

Fossil ivory, mammoth, is perfectly legal and has replaced elephant ivory in most knife/firearm applications due to the import ban that has been in place for decades.

Also, mammoth ivory is typically stained and easily differentiated from elephant. There rare, and more valuable mammoth tusks that more closely resemble modern elephant, but they'll have "bark" unlike anything from this century (or last).
http://makezine.com/2012/03/29/how-to-tell-mammoth-ivory-from-elephant-ivory/

 

[TJ AK-74]

One of the problems is when LE finds a stash of illegal ivory they hold it for awhile then destroy it. Instead they should flood the market with this recovered ivory which will drive its demand and cost down thereby reducing the incentive for poachers. Do they do this, no. They destroy it thereby increasing demand and the economic incentive to poach it. Just doesn't make sense.

THIS. When LE agencies and governments complain about budget deficits and funding issues, and then just destroy thousands of dollars worth of stuff... So stupid :banghead::banghead: Totally agree with you QoT.

 

[goon]

One of the problems is when LE finds a stash of illegal ivory they hold it for awhile then destroy it. Instead they should flood the maket with this recovered ivory which will drive its demand and cost down thereby reducing the incentive for poachers. Do they do this, no. They destroy it thereby increasing demand and the economic incentive to poach it. Just doesn't make sense.

Exactly! They should have a huge yard sale for the stuff and sell it. The more ivory there is out there, the lower the price will get as the market becomes saturated. Plus... those elephants were already killed. Destroying their ivory won't bring them back. Since the damage is already done, might as well use it to make surviving elephants safer.