Pump vs Auto

[True Grit]

Okay this question may apply more to tactics and the one you are more use to using but it's still a shotgun question. In a tactical/HD situation which would have the upper hand, a pump action tube feed or an auto loader with a magazine? I have debated this with my gun buddies and have came up 50/50. What do you guys think?

 

[JEB]

if reliability were equal with both platforms i would give the advantage to the magazine fed semi-auto due to higher capacity, rate of fire, and faster reloads.

however it it were my bacon that was about to be tossed into the fire, i would opt for the pump action. proven reliability (to me), im already well experienced with the platform, and if i cant win with 6 rounds of OO buck, i need more friends on my side!

 

[DeathByCactus]

The auto most likely. Military has been using the Benelli auto for the longest time so it seems to be the proven choice for tactical killing, I figure a pump might be more useful to a police officer though, given the use of less lethal options. I have an auto... its a hunting shotgun but I figure it will work for any tactical HD situation I could dream up that might involve someone trying to unlawfully climb my stairway.

 

[memphisjim]

the auto even though they are usually heavier
but for home protection i cant imagine the pump not being enough

 

[Girodin]

Your question really has two parts, first semi vs pump and second tube fed versus box fed.

As to auto vs pump

Auto's Pros:
1) Easier to use. While people talk about a pump being more mechanically reliable an auto is much less prone to user error (which 3 gun competitions and the like seem to show is much more of a problem than mechanical issues with an auto loader). The auto loader is particularly easier to shoot from odd/improvised positions.

2) Autos are often (but not always) softer shooting which facilitates faster follow ups and higher round counts in training.

Cons:

1) they tend to cost much more than pumps

2) some will say reliability but I think this is spurious if talking about a quality gun.

Personally I tend to prefer auto guns but there is nothing wrong with a pump.

Box fed versus tube

I don't have time to summarize all the arguments people have posited in this debate right now. I may try if I get more time later. If you search around you'll find most of them. Here are a few of the big ones.

Box mag pros:

Often a higher capacity. If one has an SBS this is even more of a factor

Reloading speed

Cons:

Top shell deformation can be an issue depending on how the gun is stored.

Mags often need tuning to get running right for the S12

If we are talking about an S12 loading on a closed bolt is difficult without mods

Carrying a spare mag takes fore thought for a grab and go set up. No spare mag and you negate reload speed

Some claim slug change overs harder/slower. IMHO they are mostly just different.

Some claim shooting from prone. This is not as big a critique to me because I tend to shoot more of an "urban prone" position anyways because true prone is painful on the clavicle with defensive loads. Also if talking about a pump you have to be up high to shoot pump it anyways.

The stick mags are long and unwieldy if bigger than 10 rounds and the drums are heavy ackward

Cannot "top off"

For HD either could work just fine. A good reliable pump gun is much cheaper and easier to get than a good reliable box fed semi auto. If it were between a pump and my S12 that is set up how I like and I know it runs then I'd rather have it. If it were a random S12 and I didn't know who had being working on it with unproven mags I'd likely grab the pump.

 

[ksabo45]

I'll stick with my 870 pump any day.

 

[True Grit]

Well this is what I'm thinking... Lets say you have an auto and you are engaged to use it is a self defence/HD situation. Now I know your not going to get in a "gun fight" in most situations with a shot gun at close quarters but bare with me. The auto is easier to use and you get a faster follow up shot. Time to reload, target is still standing... If your at home you may or may not have a spare mag ready. Lets say you do and your pinned down now what or heaven forbid you have a jam??? With a pump action tube feed it would be possibe to load in between shots but your going to sacrifice on speed. A man with an auto loader and a spare mag that knows how to use it would be much deadlier. I'm still at a 50/50 draw inside my head... I guess the best thing would then be an auto loading tube feed design! Or maybe not... Reloads would be slower than with a mag, but reloading a mag would be much slower and it would require most to take both hands off the weapon. AHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Snowdog]

Personally, I'm using a pump (a Mossberg 500 and a Norc 1897 Riot) because they have both proven absolutely reliable.

However, there are now some genuinely reliable semi autos out there, such as the Mossberg 930 SPX that are quite affordable. I can foresee a day where I might rely on a semi auto shotgun for the task of home defense.

 

[451 Detonics]

I have seen too many people fighting the mag fed guns to want one. The 3 gun matches are ruled with tube fed semi autos for a reason, they work. The tube reloaders also work very well if you are willing to practice with them and they are faster than a box mag change on a Saiga.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dk0y8NxHhq4

 

[Girodin]

That probably depends on who is using each

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ml2hXf8h-VA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GpMvj-v3_w

Moreover, using a speed loader that requires you to stare down at the gun might be great for playing games; it is a great way to get killed in a fight though.

but reloading a mag would be much slower and it would require most to take both hands off the weapon.

It would be an odd scenario where one had ammo on hand but not in a mag. Were I in such a scenario, with no secondary weapon, and facing an immediate threat I would likely just feed a shell through the ejection port and engage that threat, not totally unlike with a tube gun. I would likely repeat as needed.

 

[brnmuenchow]

Absolutely love the Benelli M4-90 Auto, HOWEVER: There is something to be said about that pump action cycling that makes a criminals blood run cold in the dark!

 

[WardenWolf]

Semi-autos are usually a little lighter than pumps, are faster, and can be just as reliable, if not more so. As for the Saiga 12, mine was 100% with #00 out of the box. I've upgraded a few components on it since then, though, making it reliable with lighter loads. When it comes to magazine capacity, it's definitely on top.

 

[451 Detonics]

There is something to be said about that pump action cycling that makes a criminals blood run cold in the dark!

Actually all it does is to announce where you are and tells the BG you are armed so he should shoot at any movement he sees if not to just start shooting through walls as soon as he hears it.

 

[brnmuenchow]

451 Detonics: You can tell that to my cousin who scared off a home intruder that way without ever firing a shot. Not every criminal is typically going to want to be in a gun fight, if he has any sense at all he will know where the nearest exit is. Also on top of that regardless of what everyone say's not every criminal is packing a gun, he could have a knife, bat, tireiron, or mabye nothing at all. That is also about as stupid as saying, "well if you rack the slide on your semi-auto he could hear that and start shooting through the wall too". There are no absolutes in life, and you only pray it never happen's to you preferably without having to shoot anyone.

 

[rstull85]

I like my Mossy 500. Thats really all you need

 

[BeerSleeper]

In a tactical/HD situation which would have the upper hand,

Nothing will be better than the gun which you, personally, are most familiar and comfortable with. For some it will be the pump, others, the auto.

 

[kayak-man]

It depends. Usually, I'd say the box fed auto, because you can get a full magazine in fairly quickly, and you can shoot it pretty quickly.

But...

I would rather be equiped with a good pump gun (Or even better, that one Benili I think it was that was a semi auto, but still had the pump feature to cycle weak loads). An auto like the S12 is going to be run pretty much like an AK, because, well, its pretty much an AK.

If it doesn't have a Last Round BHO, I don't know about you guys, but I have a hard enough time counting my shots when I'm just at the range, so I wouldn't know the gun was empty until I pull the trigger and nothing happens. Thats not really something I would want to have happen to me in a gunfight. Even if your shotgun does have a LRBHO, that still means you don't know you need to reload, until you need to reload.

So for me, I'd rather take the handicaps of a tube gun, so that I can have the benefit of being able to top off the magazine when I get behind cover.

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson

 

[Girodin]

Or even better, that one Benili I think it was that was a semi auto, but still had the pump feature to cycle weak loads).

The M3. I'd rather have the M1, the M2 or the M4 personally.

I have no need to cycle less than lethal rounds.

Any other light loads the only reason a self defense gun needs to cycle them is for practice and if I can't practice the way I intended to run it in self defense then is of no benefit to be able to shoot them.

If I had light round for some unexplained reasons in my gun and then not eject in a SD situation I'd probably clear it faster just pulling the charging handle on the semi than using the M3's feature to switch to pump mode and then pumping.

It is a neat idea but of limited value for a HD gun IMHO.

so I wouldn't know the gun was empty until I pull the trigger and nothing happens. Thats not really something I would want to have happen to me in a gunfight. Even if your shotgun does have a LRBHO, that still means you don't know you need to reload, until you need to reload.

This is the same for a pump. Same as with a pump if you're not shooting reload. Instead of topping off behind cover do a tac reload. While a LRBHO is nice it is hardly a requisite of a fighting weapon let alone a HD shotgun. AKs don't have a LRBHO and they are taken into harms way all over the world everyday.

 

[kayak-man]

Girodin,

After I posted that, I looked up the M3, and decided that I will stick with 870s, and maybe an S12 or 1100.

I've never been a fan of tac-reloads, but if it works, doesn't really matter what I think, does it?

 

[Hal Carter]

As others have said, whatever you are most comfortable with. Still a working semi auto, has less to think about, and on the chance we are injured, the semi could be more easily worked. Also if our spouse, girlfriend or even teenaged kid, might have to use it in our absence, there would be less for the untrained to think about. If you are not dedicated to training the pump, it is easy under stress to short stroke.

Remember FBI Miami shootout? 1 agent was trying to pump his shotty with 1 hand wounded.

The downside for semi's is they can be picky about loads they like/dislike. Find a good buck load and stock up.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Watching 20 or 30 fellow students go through a good shotgun class with the variety of hardware that usually shows up for that sort of thing would probably give you a more reliable (or at least observable) answer to your question...

fwiw,

lpl

 

[Bud Tugly]

If you're familiar with a pump and/or willing to practice with it a lot then the reliability with a variety of loads and cost certainly favors them. OTOH a semi is more foolproof for a beginner since there's no chance of short-stroking in a crisis.

Personally I favor a single shot with a butt cuff since I've been using them all my life and can operate one in the dark blindfolded, but it's certainly less than ideal for others. IMO it all comes down to whether you have experience with a certain type of action or are willing to spend the time gaining it.

I really worry about all the folks who buy any HD gun, take it out and shoot it a couple of times, and then think they're safe. IMHO many of them would be better off with a baseball bat.

 

[Kingcreek]

If my 870 ever fails me I will consider an auto, but until then...

 

[guzzi]

I find this video interesting.

 

[montveil]

I think it says it all. The auto got more rounds off faster and the operator was able to follow up with the handgun quickly. The follow up with the handgun would surely overcome any auto jam.
With the two firearms I would favor the auto as I probably would not take the time to clear the shotgun jam but go directly to the handgun
To be fair, it did look like the fellow with the auto was much more experienced.