Putting a Price on a "Priceless" M1917?

[CmdrSlander]

I need to put a price on a one of a kind M1917 rifle, it doesn't belong to me but an acquaintance of mine is looking to sell it after her grandfather's passing and has no idea of the value. It was customized by an unknown 'smith sometime in the mid 1960's and fires the .35 Whelen round.

Here are the features:
-Matte Nickel finish, hand engraved accents (a few outlines around the reciever, some geometric designs) that have been expertly filled in with some kind of black paint or bluing (none has flecked off so it looks like it was part of the original job and not something somebody did to highlight them for photos/display).

-Beautifully figured Mannlicher walnut stock with pistol grip and a fairly high comb LOP is about average, hand checkered, matte nickel reinforcement/action screws with black "cartwheel" or floral accents on them.

-Hinged floor plate, also matte nickel, also slightly accented. Trigger guard is matte nickel, trigger is blued and about 3 pounds.

-Bolt has been "jeweled" with a hexagonal pattern. Bolt handle is not original, it sweeps back more smoothly than a standard M1917 bolt and had a larger bolt handle w/ some checkering where one would expect it.

-Barrel is 22" with a highly polished blued finish. Aftermarket front sight has an orange-ish (faded) bead. Original irons are gone, scope mounts in place, barrel mounted adjustable aperture sight.

-No serial. Only markings are on barrel and bolt body, bolt reads (not visible when closed, and very small lettering) "Proof tested at highest stand'rd pressures" Barrel reads "Cal .35 W."

The family story goes that it was her grandfather's great-grandfather's rifle and her grandfather had it customized then never shot it again because he found his old Model "handier" Totally pristine from what I can tell. Has this beautiful luster to it, the wood, the nickel, the bluing, hard to describe really.

What value would you put on this rifle? The acquaintance has no interest in guns and wants quote "that creepy thing" out of her house.

 

[CmdrSlander]

Any Ideas on where to start looking? Is transferring a gun with no serial even legal? Should just buy it of her for $$750 (though it is worth way more, but I know she will take that, don't want to take advantage of her though)

 

[tyeo098]

Just remember, "customized" to some people means "mutilated" to others.
Also, no serial? That may be a problem...

 

[crazysccrmd]

No serial shouldn't be a problem, they weren't required until GCA in 1968.

Edit: I'd love to see pictures of this rifle too, sounds pretty nice.

 

[CmdrSlander]

Pics

I need to take some, the thing is stunning. Don't think of it like some victorian era H&H gun or something though, it is meant to be used, the engraving is tasteful (shapes and patterns, no scenes like a lot of engraved guns).

 

[CmdrSlander]

More notes on the rifle

The gun has been fully bedded into the stock, what can I look for to determine the type of bedding for the auction/ad description?

 

[firesky101]

great thing about a free market. Things are worth what others are willing to pay. A lot of collectors would not touch a bubba'd 1917 with a ten foot pole, it does not matter how shiny. Personally I like something to shoot, not something to look at, and the .35 is something I would really like to shoot. Only you can say if you are taking advantage, I looked at GB and could not find a 1917 conversion, but there is a 1903 that has been posted about 20 times for $3000 (no takers on that one). Of course thats an '03, a whole different horse. Oh yeah get some pics please!!

 

[tyeo098]

No serial shouldn't be a problem, they weren't required until GCA in 1968.

Riiiight... but wasn't the M1917 ISSUED with a serial number? Where did it go? Was it defaced and/or destroyed? Then it might be a problem.

 

[CmdrSlander]

Serial

The serial number was removed, I don't know why, maybe they thought it detracted from the looks or something. It is clear what they did to remove it though: Three rectangular cuts were made around the serial, Gov't property and manufacture's marks, these were as deep as the engraving for said marks, the three pieces of metal were then excised, the holes were filled and finished with the rest of the receiver, the only way I can tell they are there is by feeling the slight indent around where each mark was. The area where they were sports a design of an eagle, in one wing it guards some scrolls like a bird would take its young under its wing (representing what? craftmanship, the bill of rights?) in the other a clutch of bayonets.

 

[crazysccrmd]

Even then, as far as I'm aware it wasn't a crime to remove a serial number until after 1968. If the work was done before then it shouldn't matter. I have a .22 that was built in America before 1968 and has no serial number and there was no issue with purchasing/transferring it.

 

[CmdrSlander]

Why?

I've heard stories of soliders bringing back their weapons (in a less than upstanding fashion) who tried to deface/remove the markings, especially the gov't property markings. Others (like my grandfather, who legally bought his weapon when he retired from the military) had the government property mark sanded off his old 1911 from Korea because it was his now and didn't want any mistake to be made about that. Given how hard it was to manually remove these markings it is plausible that the previous owner, when it was still in military config tried to do this and the 'smith couldn't go ahead and finish it with a bunch of scratches and tool marks on the receiver.

 

[Mitchell Gard]

You should absolutely try to get some pictures of this up. It sounds like something we would all be interested in seeing. I think the serial removal could be a bit of an issue.

 

[CmdrSlander]

@Mitchell Gard

No pics for a while, it is at my acquaintance's house, and it is almost 8 o'clock here. I can't just drive over with the DSLR. She's a coworker, not a friend, so that would be pretty weird .

Also, if the serial was removed before the GCA then why would that be a problem? Even if it was stolen (see post 11) gov't property the statute of limitations would make that a non-issue, and even a good story that would add value.

 

[tyeo098]

Because its illegal to possess (or transfer?) a post-GCA gun with no serial. Thats why.

 

[BrocLuno]

Well, this rifle needs an appraisal, which will help set the price. The appraiser will make note of anomalies and local ordinances that apply. To assist with the appraisal, she neds to write down the provenance of the weapon. And get a second knowledgeable persons signature as fare back as she can. If her Dad knows first hand about Grand-pa's rifle conversion, he should sign a statement to that affect.

It also needs to be condition checked. CmndrSalander is familiar enough with fire arms, that should be easy. Once those hurdles are out of the way, it'll bring what it brings. I have not met a sporterized 1917 in any nominal caliber other than H&H that has sold for more than $600. But you might find past sales on GB that might be similar?

It seems that getting an appraisal will put the rifle in someones books, maybe for the first time(?), and it will cost money. So your offer of $750 is generous and saves everyone a bunch of hassle. Seems OK to me. It's certainly not ripping her off. It's not a rifle sold every day, so it's hard to say?

One way to look at this is: "If it were mine, what would I be willing to take for it?" If you have a firm price in mind, that's probably what it's worth

 

[firesky101]

also I cant imagine the sn being a problem in texas. If we can transfer C&R's without an ffl (for a couple more years anyway), Texas should not be a problem. You still live in the USA burden of proof on commission of a crime is on the accuser. Same with all that 922r garbage.

 

[tyeo098]

also I cant imagine the sn being a problem in texas.

I didn't know federal laws had no relevance in Texas.

If we can transfer C&R's without an ffl (for a couple more years anyway),

C&R's require an 03 Collector's FFL. Transfer w/o is also 10 years in Club Fed.

You still live in the USA burden of proof on commission of a crime is on the accuser. Same with all that 922r garbage.

"Can you prove this gun has no serial number?"

"Yes, by the fact that it has no serial number"

 

[firesky101]

what I meant is it is already in private possession. Do you in the rest of the country actually need to go through an ffl for a face to face transfer? Removing the s/n is a crime, but prove it was done after 1968. I just figured here in california if it would not be a problem for me, it would not be a problem anywhere else.

 

[Kurush]

(k) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.

18 U.S.C.A. § 922 (West)

I haven't checked the caselaw but from the plain language of the statute it seems that having a gun with a serial # that has been defaced is illegal even if it was defaced pre-GCA.

 

[CmdrSlander]

Could I have a serial number added? Laser etched or something? It would then make the gun identifiable.

 

[firesky101]

So I did some reading in the ATF files and it is pretty straight forward, but.... It mentions it in the 1968 act about destroying/requiring serial numbers. One could argue that since it is a dated law that grandfathering should apply. I am not a lawyer, the cheap option is to call the batfe, they are typically helpful and do not require a name/address for questions to get answered. In the long run it probably would never come up as a problem, someone could have milled a 1917 action and made that rifle, kinda hard to prove otherwise.

 

[Shadow 7D]

If they manufactured the rifle from a 1917 receiver and failed to put a serial number on it prior to 1968, don't see the problem, unless it's under the GCA, it should be grandfathered

 

[tyeo098]

manufactured the rifle from a 1917 receiver and failed to put a serial number

Military issue rifles tend to have serial numbers...

 

[mtrmn]

Who gives a rat's butt about a serial number on a 1917?? It was made long before they were required and it is indeed the OP's problem--not yours. Let's just see some pics of this beauty.

 

[CmdrSlander]

@mtrmn see post 13